Confronting Your Childhood Trauma to Become Unbroken | with Brett Kaufman

Michael: Brett, my friend, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here with me today.

Brett: Michael, it's good to be with you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Michael: Yeah. I'm excited, man. Your story, your journey is phenomenal. I'm very excited to get into it. I believe that some of the things we'll touch base on today through your own journey will certainly help transform the lives of many people who are listening. But if I were to ask you to describe your childhood in one word, what word would that be?

Brett: It's a great question. It's a great way to start. And I guess I'll probably break the rules cause that's just what I do. But my, initial response, if I was just to say one word would have been chaos, but that's actually not the word that I'm going to use. But I think it's helpful to frame the actual word that I would say is perfect.

Michael: Why?

Brett: Yeah. On the surface, initially it was it, my childhood was complex, from 0-10, because in many ways, it was this like, at times like ideal situation where, you know, my mother and father we're young in many ways, perfectly matched, creating a family, a family that my dad was working for family, they were successful. We were doing nice things, traveling and living a pretty, good life, except that there was a lot of chaos. My dad was an alcoholic. He was a an addict gambler, a sex addict, cheating, abusive and, yeah. And so like in reality, the reality was it was pretty chaotic and it was really tough on me in those early years. Because I was the boy that was supposed to be a man or was being groomed to be a man. And a lot of the chaos and the abuse, got directed my way and it was scary. I was sensitive, I was just a kid, I was probably, a more sensitive kid, and I was scared and things were really difficult. And in fact, it was pretty confusing because then there would be these times where we would take a nice vacation or we would have a nice dinner or we would go to my grandparents house and have something that felt normal. But then, as it is with an alcoholic or an addict it's crazy too. So, the reason I say chaos is for those reasons. My mom, fortunately left my dad when we were, when I was 10, my sister and I moved away and we started over. And we started over, with a new family. My mom remarried to a wonderful person. And, we started a new life, but as, and as I've learned, that those years are pretty important. And a lot of shit had really landed in me and started to shape who I would become. The reason I say perfect is because I have the luxury of now knowing having gone through all of the journey that it was perfect for me. It really helped me become who I am, that if I didn't have the pain and suffering that I had, if I didn't have to go through go down that path and then, the path that continued on for me until I got to a certain point of my breaking point, my point of really wanting to heal and healing and ultimately coming out on the other side of that. If I didn't have that journey, I don't know who I would be. And so that's why I say perfect. ‘Cause that's really what I believe. I think, it all happens perfectly.

Michael: Yeah, I like that. And I think that my assumption would be that comes through the reframing of doing the work and recognizing how life is often working for you instead of against you, even though it might suck when you were young and you were experiencing this dichotomy of worlds, was there any part of childhood where you thought what was happening, like behind closed doors was normal or abnormal, or was it being exposed to some type of normal in the world? Did that shape what was happening in your mind as a kid?

Brett: Yeah. We've had a chance to talk and I've heard your story and your experience. So that's front of mind for me, but mine, mine was different in that the truth is that way into my adult life, I'm talking, within the last 10 years, maybe even five, somewhere in between that. Period of time, I was in a therapy session with my therapist where I was talking about my childhood and I was doing it in such a matter-of-fact way that she stopped me and she said, you do know that's not normal, right? And I was like, what? What's not normal? And she said the way that you're talking about your childhood almost makes it sound like it was like, just what everybody experienced or was like just normal. And it's not normal, it wasn't okay. And the reason I tell you that is because I just, that's all I knew. It just was my life. I didn't really know. I didn't really even think that much of it, honestly. I didn't know about addiction. I didn't, and listen, I'm almost 49 years old. We're talking about 75 to 85, that zero to 10, I don't think people called alcoholics. Not in Akron, Ohio. It's what the guys did. They drank, they might've cheated, they worked really hard, gambled with their buddies. We did, I didn't really even know this was like a problem. It just was like my experience and it was a big problem, but it was just my life. It was just the life I lived and I wasn't really conscious even to most of it. ‘Cause, cause my default was really more disassociation. I lived off in a dream world. I was, constantly getting in trouble with not paying attention to school. I was, my dad was always yelling at me. He quit daydreaming because I literally people would talk and I didn't even know they were talking, that was my default. So, my recollection of that entire period of time is extremely fuzzy at best.

Michael: And that, that daydreaming thing, that's talk about a defense mechanism. I experienced that myself constantly getting in trouble constantly, like on a daily basis for not paying attention. And what's interesting today, like they would probably treat you as a kid and give you all the medications in the world but they're always treating a symptom and not the root. And I look at what you just said, And I'm like, of course you're dissociated. How could you not be? Your life is chaotic. Your child, the thing that you need is some sort of civility and calmness so that you can navigate the world and that growth. And if you don't have that, you will go find it. However, you have to find it. And in the daydreaming, the dissociation, like it's so unbelievably normal for people who had traumatic experiences to have that as a byproduct, that it's something that even for me as an adult, I have to catch myself. I'd be like, whoa, dude, you're in La Land right now. When I want to go back to something, ‘cause I think it's really important. The discovery of the experience of childhood not being normal can shatter people's reality a little bit. And as an adult, what it sounded like to me in the therapy session was that you had to face the reality of oh wait, no, this isn't normal. Your therapist is telling you like, yo, Brett, this is not normal. What impact did that have on you? Like that moment and looking back in hindsight at childhood and recognizing, wait, maybe this isn't normal.

Brett: Yeah. It's a good question. Look, I think at that point in my life, when that moment had happened, I had already done a lot of processing and healing and, a lot of work that had me, dismissive of the past because, it was, It's in the past. Even today I don't really spend a lot of time talking about my past, my childhood, my traumas, because I personally don't define myself that way. My identity is not my trauma. My identity is not what happened to me. I hold the belief like an embodied belief fully that I'm so full of gratitude for all of it that my I don't really think that much of it anymore. Now I will say it's not that I skipped over it. I had to really face it all. And, in that moment, when she asked me that question, it was a level of awareness that was brought to it that, that was helpful for me. It was helpful for me to just, to know. That, that little boy that was scared and, curled up in the corner of my bedroom with my mom because my dad was drunk and on a bender and we were scared, wasn't okay. That wasn't okay, that wasn't normal. That's not how it's supposed to be. And it was important for me to really recognize that and to know that. And yet, it is what it is. It did happen. And, thank God, I have been able to talk about it. I have been able to share about it. I have been able to get, support and help to make peace with it all. And I will say, I think it's important for me to say, my dad passed away in November and we made peace. I got to really talk about all of it with him. I got to really get some something I needed from him, some apologies and some ownership. And I was able to forgive him and we were able to actually find at the end, it was sad because it was late, but we actually were able to have a little bit of a loving father-son relationship that I missed out on all those years. And that's really been helpful. It was always bookended by, like why did we not do this sooner, what happened, but I also know the answer to that, which was, he was an alcoholic and alcoholics in the end that was his only remaining addiction. And he just, couldn't do it, but we healed a lot.

Michael: That's powerful. Thank you for sharing that one. It made me think, I was in this session with my therapist once and I was just really upset and I told him, I said, I don't want to be here. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of looking at your stupid face every week, sitting in the same chair, drinking the same bullshit tea. And I said, I'm tired of cleaning up messes that weren't mine. And he says, yeah, dude, I get it, I understand. And he said something to me that was really important that kind of changed my life forever. And he said, have you ever thought about what your mother's childhood was like? And that was such an impactful moment because here's what I think about the reality of life. We are all humans having a human experience and none of us know what the fuck we're doing. And for some people, the thing that makes them feel the most human is actually the same thing that takes them away from humanity. And that's drugs or alcohol or other addictions. And it's like that numbing process shuts down the world. But what happens is it leaves children, like you and I and most of the people who are listening to this show, wondering about their self worth, wondering about their importance, wondering about why me. And, you look at this as this journey of, you get closure, right? Which I think is really beautiful. And you get to open up this relationship, even for whatever period of time it was, but when you're a kid, you don't understand what's happening. Did you have any rational idea about the impact of what was actually happening in real time when you were experiencing your father and the abuse or whatever's happening with your mother? Were you cognizant in any capacity? This isn't, not only necessarily normal, but there's something wrong with him or something. He's hiding from?

Brett: I can't say that I really was, again, because I just was like, when I think about it you use the language, the vortex and I don't know if I know exactly what you mean when you say that, but, it feels to me like, like I was in some sort of vortex. Like I was just in this like, isolated world where like in my house, like that shit was just what was going on. And like I was then in my body and my mind and I, if anything, I just so didn't know that it wasn't right or wasn't like this for other people, I was more in a mode of like, all right I know if I don't eat these Brussels sprouts, he's going to go nuts. So, I'm going to put in my mouth and I'm going to go to the bathroom. Spit them out or I know that if I don't run, and, do it, he wants me to do in the soccer field, like he's going to be pissed and I don't want to be pissed. So, I'm just going to fucking do it. And I'll do it till I throw up. And, or, I used to literally I remember I was at my friend's house. I was probably seven, eight years old. And I was so scared of my house and my family, my dad, that I was afraid to ask my friend where the bathroom was in his house. So I pissed myself, this is, I'm a seven, eight year old, I don't know the difference. So I was just doing what I thought I needed to do to navigate the world that I was living in. And that's all I really knew from.

Michael: That's unfortunately that self-preservation, right? And it becomes a learned behavior to not ask for your wants, your needs, or your interests. And I have uncomfortable goosebumps right now because I actually relate to what you say so vehemently. I feel that in my fucking soul, where I would be at my cousin's house, or a friend's house, or dude, I was terrified to ask for a glass of water, I was terrified to go to the bathroom, I was terrified of I'm hungry, do you have food? And that the implications of that are so dire, because it's really that theft of identity, like asking for what you need is about honoring who you are like that's identity. What impact did that level of self preservation have on you? I think about so much of life in those moments is we pay a cost. There's a price for what we do and don't know, how we ask or don't ask, how we live or don't live, and I can't help but imagine there must have been some kind of massive toll because of that level of need to keep yourself safe. What was that like? What impact did that have on you?

Brett: Yeah. So what happens is, my mom has a bit of a, kind of a divine intervention. She left my dad moved away, started over and like I said, sets us up in a wonderful situation with a wonderful person who, is a loving, stepfather. And yeah, that shits in me, it is who I am, so, what do I do? I start acting out, women, drugs. Shitty grades, being a rebel, whatever. And that was my coping mechanism and that, continued to be my coping mechanism, constantly just up to whatever kind of shenanigans I could get up to, to try to, fit in, to be liked, to numb. By the grace of God, in that partying, in that rebellion, I found some things that actually were pretty healing. I didn't know that's what they were, but I discovered music, I discovered my high school art room, I discovered psychedelics, I discovered the grateful dead, I found community, I found people that I related to, there was a people laugh, cause now, with John Mayer and the dead and company and blah, blah, blah. But like back in the day for me, that was like freedom. It was an energetic thing. I was around people. I could just be myself and the drugs were both traumatizing and also opening me up. I'm not a proponent of psychedelic medicine in unfacilitated settings because I also had a lot of bad trips that really were horribly traumatizing. It's dangerous. It's unsafe. But I also got opened up in that moment and so there was trauma and healing. There was acting out and finding myself. It was a messy journey is what took place. And then the next phase, I decided when I graduated from college that I was going to do all the things my dad had told me I needed to do to be a man. I got a job that I hated in corporate America at a bank so I could be somebody and impress people. I got married right away, 24 years old. I married my four year, four, I've been with my girlfriend for four years, got married. I started having a family at 26, I went down this corporate ladder road. I lived into this, pseudo self, which my friend, John Kim, who just came to town talks about, solid self pseudo self. My whole life was pseudo. I was fake as fuck everywhere. I went doing all the things that I thought I was supposed to do. And I lived into that for a long time. And again, it's not all bad. I'm still 25 years into my marriage with my wife. Who's been a soulmate. Although that's, when you're a pseudo self, that's a whole thing to, to rediscover who you are and be in relationship with somebody. I was not a good dad for early years. Cause I was angry and, not sure who I was and taking shit out of my kids, but I figured that out. Thank God, I love my kids. We have beautiful relationships, but yeah, it was a messy, twisty, wild turn and it, it came it came to, fruition in all kinds of, messy, horrible ways. Including, in my own, life, my own addictions, I've had to wrestle with all of that. It was tough and it can be still.

Michael: I resonate in many ways and the thing that comes to mind here is, you had to, again, it was just survival, it was self preservation and, of course you can always factor in whether or not there's the societal implications and this is what it means to be a man, and especially if you grew up in the Midwest, like both of us did, dude, all of my friends were married by the time I was 25. All of them, and so you add that in there and you're looking at that and you're like, for me, I always felt behind. I was like, I'm not married. I don't have kids. Yes. I had a great career, but I fucked it all up, and it was just this consummate journey of healing. And one of the things that I think about a lot is how, you know, often in order for us to actually heal, we have to do the opposite of what our parents showed us. Like you want to be a good dad. You want to be a good husband. You want to be a good leader. You want to be a great wife, a great mother. Like you really have to take inventory of all this shit that they did and say, what do I keep and what do I take away? What do I toss? What do I get rid of? How do I do the opposite? Because I would have to assume that. And until you are rational and you realize the decisions you're making. Now I'm speaking to you from the aspect of I don't have kids and I'm not married. So let me be very clear. But what I want to try to understand is where does the turning point start to take place? ‘Cause there's so many people who, man, even though they might be going to therapy or they're coaching or they listen to this podcast. They're still repeating so many of the behaviors that they learned from their parents and it's fucking their life. Sub, how do you navigate that?

Brett: It's a great question. Somebody said, and I don't really know who to attribute this to, but it was attributed to Barack Obama who said, somebody said but that men spend most of their lives either trying to prove their fathers wrong or doing the opposite of what they saw. I suppose there's a third option, which is you just repeat it. I think in my case I never was repeating the behavior of my dad exactly. But I was like a better version of him in some ways, if I'm really being honest and maybe I'm hard on myself, but that's how I saw myself more of an acceptable version of him. So I wasn't cheating on my wife, but I was using porn or I wasn't beating my kids, but I was, yelling at him. And what I'll just, this isn't the answering your question, but somebody, my, my former therapist who passed away told me once and I think it's a really important thing for people to know. And maybe it help will help be helpful to answer your question in how you get out of that pattern. But somebody once told me it's not important that you get it right beginning to end as a parent, as a father, you don't have to be perfect beginning to end. In fact, it's even more powerful if your kids see you change. That if they see that you're imperfect, if they see that you were somebody that you didn't like, and you changed and became somebody that you do that message is way more important for people, for kids, because they too are going to have to figure shit out. They too are not going to be perfect. Nobody is. And so if they can see that you also, therefore parent, their role model, they're not perfect and they changed. That is a powerful experience for them. More impactful but really, how did I do that? How did I do that? I have always been somebody who naturally gravitated to self-help. When I was eight years old, my mom took my sister and I to therapy, my sister, came out crying, said, I'm never doing that again. I came out and said, when can I go back? And I've been in therapy on and off, mostly on my entire life. I've been in therapy my entire adult life, used to listen to Wayne Dyer books on tape when I was in high school. I've just loved this shit and ‘cause it helps me, I feel better when I do it. And now, I have like bolt down disciplines, routines with all the things that helped me because, cause I feel that. I get the benefit of that, I love it because it works. And I just have done the work and keep doing the work and I see it working. And so that's how I've made the change over a long period of time, doing a lot of little things on top of each other over and over again, over a period of time is how change happens.

Michael: Yeah, it definitely is. And I wrote this down. It's more powerful. If your kids see you change, dude, that's that hits home for me in a really deep way, because it's like, you have to be willing to transform like this journey. Here's what I think about all the time. Nobody's going to come and knock on your door, Brett and be like, Hey, dude, you're fucking up everything in your life right now. You might want to consider doing something different. Generally, it's wow, I'm taking notice. I have awareness that something in my life is off. I need to do something about it. And those around you will bear witness, whether they're your children or your partner or friends or family or coworkers, people will bear witness to that. Now what's interesting is often, and I don't know if this was your experience or not, but often people will want you to stay the same. They like the old version of you. They liked that version of you that was partying and doing drugs and being a maniac because that's how they know you, that's their connection. And then you start to shift and it becomes different. One of the things I think about a lot though, and that's not the path I want to go. Cause I think I've probably gone down that path to death, but one of the things that I'm really curious about having now been in a relationship for 25 years, which is unbelievable. Congratulations. How do you navigate change? For yourself while you're in a relationship, like what does that dynamic look like? Because I think that a lot of people get. Into this space of change, their partner doesn't support them. They're now becoming that different person. Things are strange for a period of time. Can you talk about that? I think it'd be really helpful one for me, but also for people listening.

Brett: Sure. Yeah. It's great question. I think that it's an important question and I don't. I want to say what worked for me, what's right for me is right for other people, because I really believe that there's a lot of different ways to be in relationship. And there's a lot of different ways that people are doing things now that, maybe work for them. Maybe they're better. I don't know. I think, we have this this sort of societal norm about, marriage that isn't really working for the most part. If you look at the stats, half of them are ending in divorce and there's some large portion of the other half that aren't happy. So the model isn't Certainly working for everybody. But here's what, I have chosen and has worked for me. And you're right, my, my wife married me under one assumption, which was that I was that person. And then somewhere along the way, along the line I changed and became someone else. And that was an adjustment. But what I think mattered for us. And still matters for us is there was some real shared values and beliefs and commonality at our core of who we both were then and who we both are now and that never changed and that was probably at a soul level what brought us together and what keeps us together. Now I will say that. Similar to the message about your children seeing you change, I find that the beauty of being with somebody, we actually have been together for 29 years, we'll be married 25 in September, the beauty of not quitting, not giving up, not letting it break, is the beauty of happiness. I can say, we're both the overcoming the change. Overcoming the challenges, overcoming the hardships. Not just in our relationship, but we've had we lost a late pregnancy. We've had, challenges with our children, we've had challenges in work and life, we've stayed together through all of that, we've got all those battle wounds, we got a long history together. There's something powerful in that, there's something bonding in that, there's something that, you don't get if you quit, and again, not saying everybody should stay in the relationship, but for me, having moved through a lot of that shit together man that's pretty awesome. I'm pretty, I feel really blessed that I've had a partner who stood by me. Despite the fact that I've changed as much as I have, despite the fact that it was probably tough to be with some guy with a sleeve tattoo that used to be wearing a suit and tie that she, like the way he looked in the suit and tie, it's not easy to be with somebody who's processing a lot of trauma, who has had a, abusive, upbringing when she came from a unconditionally loving household and it's all unfamiliar.

Thank God she's, stood by me. And I have a lot of gratitude for that. And we've had to work at it, it didn't just happen. A lot of therapy, a lot of, bubbling up conflict, a lot of struggle and challenge there, but. We've done that work. We keep doing the work too and I will emphasize that. I don't think that the time to go to therapy or couples therapy is when you have problems, the time is to go before you have problems so that you're prepared when the problems come, which they're inevitably going to come.

Michael: Yeah, they're definitely going to come. And I always think that you will learn the most about yourself when in a relationship. And you hear a lot of people say this concept, like you have to love yourself before you love other people. And I'm like, that's not necessarily true because I think sometimes you need to borrow love from other people in the same way. I think like people are like, I need to be confident to start. And I'm like, that's definitely not true. But sometimes you need to borrow some confidence, right? And that's one of the really beautiful things that I get out of coaching because people come to me when they're at their lowest and I'm like, here, I'll give you some of mine. I got plenty, trust me. I've worked my face off to get it, but it's about the leveraging it in the day to day and not quitting. Man, that's such a good point because right now, dude, you should be so thankful you're not dating because it is a throwaway society and people walk away on the drop of a hat and we live in this space and time where resiliency almost does not exist in relational capacity and you do see the divorce rate growing and you do see unhappiness in marriages and relationships. But I would have to say that, and this is from a single guy's perspective, as I've been on my own journey and long term relationships and things of that nature, I look back on times, Brett, and I go, I fucking quit. It got really hard right there. And I walked away and, or they walked away or it got really difficult. And they're like enough dating people. And I would assume being married to people who have trauma, I would guess they probably don't really know what they're about to experience. If you were to look at maybe something pivotal that you may be able to give somebody that's digestible about dating or being married to someone who had a traumatic background, what would that be?

Brett: Yeah. I think that sort of in a more like woowoo frame kind of spiritual belief. I believe that, we pick our partners as mirrors that there's something divinely perfect about all of it. And it's all there to show us something. And what I would say to somebody who's in a relationship is really the same thing. I think all of us need to be thinking about. Which is, can we come at it from curiosity, can we come at it from not taking it personally? Can we come at it from the angle that everybody's doing their best? Can we come at it from a place of love and patience and not judgment? Can we take a breath and pause and ask, why are you saying that? Or why are you upset? Or what's happening here instead of. Letting it land in you and getting pissed and then coming back and fighting. And, and look, it's not easy what I'm saying. It might sound easy, but it is not. But I do think those kinds of ways to come at things. Certainly help, go a long way and getting to something that is connecting. As opposed to something that's dividing and, not helpful.

Michael: Do you, I'm curious, obviously you talk a big part about therapy playing a role for the entirety of your life. One of the things that I'm always considering is the importance of investing in ourselves. Whether that be through therapy or coaching or, the Wayne Dyer books or what have you, this is such a hyperbolic question. It might be almost impossible to ask, but do you think that your life would be the life that it is if you did not invest in yourself?

Brett: Definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely not. It's again, I just I don't I, listen, I did the work, I did do it and I keep doing it, but it almost feels bigger than me. That I just, I don't really know why I did it. I don't know how it got to me. I don't know. The people that came into my life, it's still coming to my life, my friends, my support system. It just feels so. Divinely perfect spiritual God is what I call it. It just, it's unexplainable. So I don't know what else to call it, but I just know that I'd be some horrible version of myself. If I didn't, if I didn't do that work, if I didn't have those people, I might be dead. Who knows, but I look back on Stupid shit we did when we were kids and teenagers and, and it's just lucky, it almost feels today things are different with, fentanyl and the drugs that'll kill you. But I could have done a million things that could have killed me, and, and that's not like really that dramatic, yeah, everybody was doing it, but we all are lucky in that case, and, certainly could have fucked up my marriage. I could have fucked up my career. I could have fucked up my kids, and, and I think I got, lucky, in a lot of ways that those things didn't happen, but there's no question. If I wasn't doing the work that I've been doing, I would not have the life that I have no doubt about it.

Michael: Yeah. And sometimes it's looking at life as. The possibility by keep going, right? I think so many people don't truly understand the power of therapy or coaching or community and the human connection. And what I think is so fascinating is I love that so many people listen to this podcast. Like it's thrilling to me knowing that it's impactful, but there's levels to this game. And I really think that the truth of your power comes out when you have support, when you have community, when you have, your therapist or your coach or your mentor, because you can't see the forest for the trees when you're just trying to navigate this journey for yourself and by yourself. I think that you've dropped a tremendous amount of wisdom on us today. And I'm grateful and appreciative of that. And I know it's something that you're very masterful at. And so I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your podcast and how people can discover more about you.

Brett: Thank you for saying that, I appreciate it. It's very kind and means a lot coming from somebody that's recorded almost 800 episodes. Yeah, my podcast came out of just Kind of a creative curiosity. We're only a couple of hundred episodes in. But I just have always loved being in deep conversation. It feels very important to me to be in this conversation with you right now, talking about life. A life that I think other people can learn from that might be things that they haven't heard before, might be things that they're afraid to share, afraid to own, or maybe they're that. Person that I was that didn't know that what happened to them wasn't okay or wasn't normal. And if that is something that comes from these kinds of conversations, which is, the kind of conversation I'm having on my podcast, we're discovering People's life journey. We're talking about not the work that they do today. We get to that at the end, right? But they've probably already talked about that on a hundred podcasts, but what they haven't talked about is what happened that got them there and how somebody else might see themselves in that journey and take some, something away, take some comfort. Take some knowledge, take some inspiration, motivation to go out and do something that they want to do, that they're trying to do, that they've dreamed about doing. That's the reason I do my podcast. And yeah, it's called gravity podcast with Brett Kaufman. You can find me on, social Brett Kaufman. We're just getting ready to. Put out some more content on a new website. We're launching here hopefully soon, but yeah, brettkaufman.com, gravityproject.com. I didn't even really talk about my day job, which is a real estate developer that's building a conscious community so that people can have physical spaces to learn and grow and connect and collaborate and, do all kinds of things.

Michael: Man, your hands are dipped in many pots, but they're all for the benefit of humanity. And as someone who's been interviewed by you, I will tell the people listening to this show you're one of the best. And I certainly hope that people will go and listen. I don't say that in jest or to blow smoke up your ass because I only say what I mean. One of the things before I, I'm going to ask you one more question. ‘Cause it just came to me and I think it's important before I ask you my last question. There's a consciousness shift that's happening right now in society where we do see people like you and I coming together to have this conversation, but one of the more difficult elements of this is from the context of, and I'm going to be very pointed in this question because I think it matters, men do not feel safe to have these kind of conversations and I find it very rare the depth of vulnerability that men will generally have a lot of that is because we create this space within ourselves based on our childhoods of man up. Don't be a bitch. Don't be a pussy. Don't cry. You mentioned something at the beginning of this, which I want to close the loop on, which, which spurs the question. You are a sensitive boy. How do you parlay Allowing the sensitivity of who it is at your core nature with your manhood?

Brett: Yeah. It's again I'd be for you to say I'm one of the best is I'm not great at hearing that kind of stuff, especially cause man, you're asking unbelievable questions and you're as good as I've seen. Thank you. And thank you for, asking, these questions. Look, it might sound kind of cliche, but I think the most manly thing you can do is stand in that sensitivity, I think that takes courage that takes strength, I actually, I had an older real estate guy say something to me once he's Turkish and he's, I think it may be as a bit, of a cultural thing. I gave a speech, which you can actually find the recording of on my podcast few years back pre COVID to a chamber of commerce room full of 1200 plus people all business people. And there was three keynote speakers, I was one of them and they were all supposed to give speeches about their businesses and about the economy and so on. And I stood up and told my story about trauma and abuse and, how it shaped me and how it led me to the work that I'm doing and building these conscious communities. And the guy said to me, he said, you're weak, in that like way that you talk about all your traumas and it's like this sensitive sort of thing. And he used the word week. I remember it. And he didn't mean it meanly he wasn't trying to say that I was bad or wrong. He was just like he saw it as like a weakness. Sharing that way, and I stopped him and I said, I don't think you mean anything by that, but I just want you to know, like what it took for me to get on that stage and share my story and the response that I got from so many other business leaders and men on that day, that, that was a, Absolute demonstration is strength and I don't know if you'll ever understand that or know that, but doesn't there's doesn't, there's nothing stronger. There's nothing more manly in my opinion than to share your full self, right? And sometimes, and I actually think we have a bit of a problem right now where people are soft, and so let's not get this confused being sensitive doesn't mean that you don't go into work cause it's raining, being sensitive doesn't mean that if you have a hard day at the office, you quit or that if you're sideways with your partner that, you give up, what it means is you feel it all and you're not afraid to talk about it and share it and honor it and have the courage and strength to come back and do it again until you can get to the other side. And that to me is what it means to be a human.

Michael: And a man is brilliantly said and I agree with you there, we are in a space of soft times and those are going to make some really hard times around the corner. And I think that there's something to be said about resiliency, but there is such a, differentiation between sensitivity and weakness and softness. And they're not the same thing. So, I'm so glad you said that because, I know the capacity of man that it takes to be able to share the deepest intimate things about their life and the struggles they've been through. And weak men do not do that just for clarity. My last question for you, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Brett: Yeah, it's what comes to mind is where we started. It's this divine perfection, and it's a yes. And it's a, both you might have been broken. You might have felt broken. Things might have been broken. And yet I don't think they ever really were right. It's both. It's both. There's these two time frames that we live in. One is the day to day where things are broken. And then there's the other time frame, which is, this perfection where it's never broken. It's always perfect. And the challenge is seeing the divine perfection, whatever you call that in the day to day. In the parts that feel broken, how can I see how this could serve me? How can I see how I can learn from this? How can I pick myself up and understand this could be for my benefit? How can I see that I could use this to create from and help someone else? How? How can you see the unbroken in the broken? That's what comes to mind for me when I hear unbroken.

Michael: Beautifully said, my friend, thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you for listening guys. Please remember when you share this, you're helping other people transform their trauma to triumph breakdowns to breakthroughs and to become the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time,

My Friends, Be Unbroken.

I'll See You.