Expert Insights on Overcoming Depression, Anxiety, and Building Healthy Relationships

Ana Lennyr Reveals Key to Healthy Relationships and Overcoming Depression and Anxiety

Michael: You take advantage of people, you're not someone that we can trust or rely on and it became really evident to me that two things happen in my life (one) is I became the polar opposite of all of those things over a long enough period of time, let me be clear but (two) I noticed that a lot of the people who I bought quote unquote, I was friends with that mattered and it's not that they don't matter it's just like they weren't bringing value in my life, they're bringing no substance. I think people feel so often and I'll speak for myself, I felt so often at the time especially in the beginning of this like, the most important thing for me to do was make everybody like me was to feel like, I mattered because they thought I mattered. So, with relationships being first and why don't we dive into that and why don't you clarify (a) what do you mean by relationships and then how do they play into this game of life?

Ana: So, many people, you know as you were labeled, it's like, you're not a good friend which means like toxic or something, right? So, a lot of times people come to me, said oh, I have this all this toxic environment, I'm like, no, you do not have a toxic environment, you have people around you who are in a tremendous amount of pain and to help with that first of all you don't have to take over their pain and then you have to see their pain to separate from it, and to see where the triggers are. But in case of relationships, we're talking about a simple thing, number one misconceptions like, you have to make everybody happy before you are happy and this happened during COVID and it got accelerated because guess what? Now that you can make anybody happy and you of yourself you realize that you are the one hurt that is nobody else to blame. And the second thing that I see over time is that most people do not know that they are four types of men and four types of women in the world. I know we all wanna be unique and different and all of that, I am one of the four types of women, okay? Michael, you are one of our four types of men in the world, right? And when I teach these four types of men and four types of women to my clients, they realize that each type has its own values in life, has its own way of thinking, has its own priorities in life, right? And because they realize that now they don't blame themselves or the other type for a different way of thinking or a different approach, right? I have a lot of women come to me and they said, oh my god, my husband abandons me and left new this scared and you know never cares about me and never pays child support and stuff like that and I ask them, is that an airman, right? And like, what do you mean is like, this has this characteristic of woman who likes freedom, who likes business, who likes money, well that's not a meant for the family, right? So, if you know this from the beginning as a woman but this particular man is not built for family, you gonna worry about marrying him, you don't worry about having a kid with him because that's not the proper man and that's not to blame that type of men it's just that has different values in life and you cannot change people, you can only accept their values and maneuver work towards what you want.

After two divorces by the age of thirty eight, I found the relationships that I teach to today were most enlighten to absolutely everybody because we all go on misconceptions about love, thinking that love is just gonna come in and he's just gonna complete us and after two, three years we found out that it's actually the opposite, it's here to hurt us and that's because we don't understand these four types of men, four types of women they are archetypes between them and how people don't come into our life to hurt us. People come with different values we think that everybody thinks like us, that's the only problem, right? So, here is like, I think everybody should think like me and then no wonder, no, oh everybody thinks like me, there are another three types of women in a world there, another four types of men. So, here I teach people – listen; what do you want? What I want this? Okay. This is the type of person you want, to get this type of person you need to be this, right? So, here is how do you arrange yourself in the system of life, in the cycle of life to find what you truly want and how you can be complete. Don't expect another to complete you. So, in case of relationships I find the most illuminating in the world, you know, these kind of four types of men, four types of women we had somebody very a young kid like, I think I'm depressed, I went it to a thousand date and I can't find anybody, what is wrong with me? I'm like, I haven't there's anything wrong with you, I don't think you're depressed either I think you don't know who you are and who you're looking for. Here, do this three-and-a-half-hour course and then call me, after two weeks he called me and said, I already found after eight dates my fiancé, I was like okay, what I guess the course worked for you, okay? You haven't even out to ask for advice, right? Because if you don't know who you're looking for and who you are. You're gonna end up in messed up relationships, there four types of relationships that don't work and two that work if you saw one type that doesn't work, you're gonna end up in the other three that don't work because this is how the cycle works, you need to learn from all four.

So, here I give a formula to people from here, listen, forget about what doesn't work this is what works, so just do it. Period. And everybody said, is too easy, okay, try it, is easy but it's gonna save you from two divorces, gonna save you from twenty years of your life of worrying about other people not liking you that includes not only your partner, your boss, your parents, your kids, your coworkers, right? Because the relationships is everything these four types of men women there everything not this is sadly enough partners, right? But a lot of people come to me because they're heart broken and they're afraid to find other people because guess what? They don't know this is them of how to master the relationships. So, that's what I found it, the most enlighten thing in the world, most people are not even depressed they just have been heartbroken and they don't know how to find their themselves in a relationship with themselves or others or how to find the person that they really want in life.

Michael: Yeah. And I wanna go into what those archetypes are a little bit more, a little bit deeper. One of the things that came to mind as you were going through that is so my mentor Tom Bilyeu taught me something really important about this idea collision of values in relationships and it being missed thing where because you lack a tremendous amount of clarity about who you are and what you want and vice versa from the other person you're gonna be like, a head and collision just waiting to happen. And so, I'd love for you to dive into a little bit deeper about these archetypes so that folks listening can have a little bit of a better understanding. Now obviously we can't give people a three-and-a-half-hour course in thirty-five minutes but we can give a little bit of context so I'd love if you dive into those a little bit more and then specifically talks about the kind of relationships that do work because I agree with you focus on why focus doesn't work when we should be focusing on what does.

Ana: So, four types of them, we like to make these energies in elements because it's easier to consume, right? So, four types I call them water, fire, air and earth because they're easy to consume. So, the four types of men, I would be lot would be the creator, visiting engineers, designers, artists, right? And there are people who the first value in life is their creation, this is why they live for they're like the Michael Angelo’s of the world, okay? Michael Angelo didn't care about the family, didn't care about kids, didn’t care about business. Michael Angelo didn't care about any of this, he cared about painting, he cared about cult, right? This is what's his contribution to society. So, this is the creator mode in man specifically and it's extraordinary because you need that because this is how ideas come into the world, this is how the world comes into place with no ideas there is nothing, right? We don't even have a computer we're talking about right now, right? So, that's my first type of man.

The second type of man is with fire man, that has a lot of energy it's like the manager, its always organizing thing, it's always kept you going, it has passion, he has driven and you see this in people as then go, go, go go, go and sometimes you're like, really when you wanna keep going is an entirely? Now you need that drive, you need that passion to propel yourself into the world, to do something because with no drive you're not gonna do anyting in life, right?

But the third type of men is the air men, this specific type of men is not concentrated on family, is not concentrated on kids, on life or anything like that compared to a fire man who puts his wife as first in priority level. This man puts his wife last in the priority level, right? And everybody because there's so attractive and businessman there love freedom, they have hobbies, they have friends, they have money, you know, all women are attracted to this type of men not realizing that this is not a good man for marriage which is good meant for having fun, alright? But these are the entrepreneurs of the world, the visionary of the world, these are the Elon Mask of the world, where you need that drive to propel the society forward as others are going to follow, this is the men that we're put into application ideas that are impossible to do and it makes it possible, right?

The fourth type of men it's the earth man and that we call them kings because they are men who take care of domain, of their family, of their business, of their community, their people who work in the military and government and nine to five jobs and these are stable man. They also can be extremely aggressive if they have a lot of traumas and these are men and women are afraid of because they're aggressive but this is only one type of men of the world, right? So, this is only twenty five percent of men. So, this is why you know here, who do you want in your life? Go and pick it, if you know who you want in your life instead of just waiting for one to come up and guess what? It comes up to hardship, right?

Now let's talk about four types of women because I know that comes up to but first type water women is the princess it's Bambi energy, it needs a lot of attention, it has a lot of emotions, it also has a lot of love with them it's like these little young stupid women that are always smiling and they never worry about anything but they are so how should I say full of love and they so refreshing, right? So, into the world you need that, you don't need all the time tension, tension also these women are the first one that gonna slip in depression if they have any kind of emotional one, okay? Because they're emotional are high level.

The second type of woman is the mistress you see them in actresses, were dress sexy, they're all the time on high heels that all the time looking good for themselves. They are very like, attraction they like, to be exquisite, to be admired they like that like, Angelina Jolie, right?

They like these kinds of things.

The third type of woman is the queen the air woman and these are CEO’s of companies, they also don't have too much intentions in families and kids they will do it, they type of women but how should I say very intimidating, right? So, men are intimidated dating them because they're just like, gonna cut hats, they look at all that, they do a job but they are busy they are very, very into the men's world to compete with them, alright? And then four types of women is the mother it's the one with takes care of garden, the soccer tournament, look kids, the dogs, the pets, the raining house, so this is the earth for woman.

All these types of men and women have their own place in the world, they have their own values in life. When you go and pick in society who do you want to be? We are more comfortable with and who do you want to have in your life you need to know this stuff because they are different dynamics between all of them.

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Michael: And I think that one of the most important things at least in my thought that people need to be able to do is deploy grace for themselves in this process because you're like holy shit, you never gonna learn something about yourself you've never understood And I'm wondering if that held true in your journey as well in which you have to just deploy a tremendous amount of grace for yourself?

Kari: Well absolutely. If you'll give me just a little way, I'll tell you a tiny little story and it was told to me when I was trying to understand I could saying, why, why, why? Why do I keep making these choices and this wonderful person said to me, you know, you live in a pile of shit that's what you live in and you know the pile of shit it stinks, it's nasty but you're familiar with it, you know what that pile shit is? And then some wonderful person comes along and says, do you see the flowers over there? If you just climb out of the pile shit there are flowers over there and there's ice cream and just get out of the pile of the shit and what I did was say no, I can't get out of pilot shit because I know the pilot it stinks, it's nasty but I know the pile shit I don't know those flowers, I don't know all of that chocolate and fun and freedom and I don't know and understand that's frightening to me. What I know is the pile of shit and she said as long as you believe that it's okay to be in that pile of shit, you're never gonna climb out of that polish to go to; the flowers, the chocolate, they're wonderful feelings, the freedom, the love, the care, the spiritual connection as long as you believe that it's okay to be in there, so, I had to change my belief.

Michael: And that's right. I really truly believe is a process of just doing it every single day, day-in and then day-out and I'm sure like me you probably screwed up more times and you can count trying to get to where you are today but you're right on the backside of the resonance beauty that like really I know especially if you're like in the fucking little like that doesn't go plausible there's no way, this is so anxiety, provoking and depressing and anxious and like everything feels like it's upside down and then the other side of it and you go wow, life is really beautiful over here. And you said something that I wanna move back to because I think it's really important is we talked about this idea like giving yourself permission to go and find what you wanted and end up having this partner who's know your rock, your husband, your companion. For people who let's kind of laid this out and moving for chronic for lack a better term around a lot of like chronological wages, if I get the damn word out. Talk to me about like this process from okay, you're going through therapy, you're doing the work, you're reading, you're showing up, you're in the groups, you're doing all this to put myself in a position to go and seek what I want. What was that transition like?

Kari: Well, the transition was that my therapist was graduated, never seen anything like that before my life and she says it's time for you to fly, you're good, you're doing great, you know what you need to do to maintain you're doing great and she said now before you leave I wanna teach you about manifesting that person that you want in your life so much. And so, she taught me how to make a list and it wasn't a list of someone who had money and it wasn't a list of someone who like the same music guy did, the list was a values list, what do I want. I want someone who has integrity, I want someone who values me and loves me, I want someone that thinks that I'm the best thing that ever happened to them and then I think is best thing that ever happened to me, so that list was fairly long of what I wanted, you know, not things, we didn't have to always be right or whatever you know, he needed to be someone that shared the same values as me, the things that I value the most. And I went through the whole stage of discovering what my values are.

So, when I met Rey, we started dating and it was slow and he brought me over to his home to see his home and I needed to go to the restroom and I had made a list, a manifest list of who I wanted and I put it up by my mirror and I looked at it and set it out loud every day. Well, I met him and I started dating him, I went to his restroom and on his mirror by his sink was a manifest list in it, with a list of values that he wanted in the person that's he wanted in his life and it was the same list that I had, and what was amazing about that list is it was dated just like mine and we wrote it on the same day.

Michael: Wow, that's amazing, yeah holy crap. You know, I think about stuff like that all the time and it's like we truly do have the power to create everything that we won in our life, we have the ability to move towards joy and happiness and fulfillment and fun and all of those things. And I think that when people kind of transition into this and they find someone the thought is especially if it's the first time you're standing lesson this was an experience that I went to was going to oh, this is too good to be true and thinking about this idea like oh, no, the other shoe gonna drop eventually, we're gonna be back to all the chaos that I once knew. And there's something about that clarity that you just laid out about having that list, about having alignment of value, so you don't have a collision of value, it's about creating and bring a bond around joy and happiness and love and companionship as opposed to trauma and pain and suffering and all those things and it's not that we own me and symbiosis with each other stories and narratives and experiences because I think that's part of human connection. But you know there's something to be sad about the enjoyment of it all and as you've kind of transitioned your own personal life in our position of being a master relationship coach I think it's really beautiful. What do you think is like the area in which people they start to get them these relationships, they're seeking love, they're maybe even in line with the values, how do you maintain that, like how do you grow that? How do you cultivate and build that to be something not only long term but impactful and powerful in your life?

Kari: Well, the number one thing that I tell couples is that you're gonna read anything that you wanna read, you're gonna hear what people tell you about how your relationship needs to look like. The truth is you and your partner are the only ones that know how your relationship is supposed to look. You are the ones that made the decisions and the choices about how you communicate with each other, that people can tell you what to do but you need to decide together how you wanna live your life and if you wanna stop all the stress and you wanna stop all the arguing and do you wanna stop all the playing game and all that stuff it's real simple, it's really boils down to one things, let go of your need to be right, let it go, that need to be right get you in arguments, so stress money, sex, kids, blah, blah, blah, all those things that's all true they're all stresser but the arguments start because one are both of you need to be right. You don't have to be right if someone disagrees with you the most wonderful thing you can say is that's interesting tell me some more, tell me more, and it's not easy to be in a relationship and I will tell you if you don't have conflicts between the two of you then you really are in trouble which is for someone who has been an abusive relationship you don't want to be hurt, abused and that's true but peace is not the answer you know it's everything is happy go lucky and there's no arguments and there's no conflict in your relationship, you both are dead and you're not growing. You gotta argue, you gotta grow, you got it have fun together, you need to enjoy each other. You know, play like your kids, don't forget that, you know, I know that children who are in abused situations we feel like we have to grow up, that we're not allowed to play anymore, you're not in the abusive relationship anymore, play that is so much fun it's okay, be a kid end play because you know your partner is your play mate go have fun.

Michael: I love that you said that in like in real time thinking about those words I'm like I've never heard anyone say that before, right? And it's so I think it's so true, it's about there should be enjoyment and fun and adventure in it, right? And you pointed to something that I thought was really fascinating as well there's a couple of places I wanna go here, it's talking about like there should be conflicts sometimes. I wanna go back to that first a second throw before and I'm gonna ask you about playing well but I wanna go back to this concept about a little bit of conflict because that feels to me in real time, I trying to understand that it feels like a necessity, having learned and understand that when you're in peace there's probably a lack of substance or connection or things of that nature but there are people listening right now, the Unbroken Nation are probably like that makes sense to be? Why would you ever want conflict in your relationship and I'd love if you break that down a little bit more and explain why that's actually something viable and important in a relationship?

Kari: Conflict is about growth and we as ourselves need to grow and as a couple we need to grow that's how we become. So, if you have a disagreement with each other and one like something or doesn't like something, learning how to resolve that with each other makes it for a better relationship, it makes you get closer, it makes you understand each other better but it doesn't just do that, it echoes out into your other relationships, it's in the safe place to learn conflict resolution, it's in a safe place where you know that person loves you, told you, cares about you even if they don't like something you did they love you anyway and that that is the relationship you want be in. So, that also echoes because your children now see you doing conflict resolution and still loving each other even when you disagree. And when you go to work and you're around the people at work they see that you can do really well and conflict resolution and then see the hope for them and their conflict resolution. So, all that we learn in that little tiny space that between me and my partner all that; that I learned between that space, it echoes into all of my relationships all around me and learning that conflict resolution in that safe space is where you wanna be.

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Michael: What I'm curious about in, actually I'll say this first, I've come to realize in just doing my own research and trying to understand my own behavior and the behaviors of other people in this arena specifically is like cheating in infidelity in affairs is like literally never about sex, ever. It's like, always about significance it, it's about self, sometimes it's about power, sometimes it's about control, but generally speaking, it's never about sex. And so, I think people get caught up on that thing. You said something a few minutes ago that I wanna circle back to use the word intimacy. And you said that your relationship is more intimate than it's ever been. What does that mean? Like define that because I think people are listening to this and they're like, how could you ever love, trust, be compassionate, have empathy, sympathy, companionship, intimacy, what do those things look like for you guys? And more so what were the tools that have led you to that here five years removed?

Lora: Yeah, absolutely great question. Because you're right. People think of intimacy as just sex. And it's like, no, that's not it. And I know people are curious, so I'm just gonna say it, we always had great sex that was never an issue. And you're right, affairs are not about sex usually. It's about something else. What it was is I said my childhood was kind of all about being happy and perfect.  and I played the role of the perfect wife, the perfect mom. So, I always had that facade on that, I'm fine. I'm fine, everything is wonderful even though I was exhausted, even though I was confused, even though, you know, all of these things were happening, I still put on the perfect face, you know, put on the perfect outfit, I did my hair, everything was perfect. You know, it was just a facade and it's not that I was trying to be phony, it was just that, that's how I thought I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do. Now on the flip side, my husband thought he was supposed to be strong because he is a survivor of childhood trauma and abuse. So, he can't go around being vulnerable and getting choked up at work and crying, he has to be this tough guy. He has to be the stereotypical manly man in our culture, you know, the big boys don't cry. He bought into that, he's gonna be the provider, he's gonna know everything as the man, you know it all, you do it all, nothing phases you. So, he was playing that role the whole time too.

So, then when we would try to come to each other to create some intimacy and by intimacy, I mean, showing each other, our shadows, showing each other, our fears, holding space for that. We were not good at holding space for that. I would come to him with a problem and he'd say, do a better job, figure it out. You're smart. Do a better job. He would come to me with something I'd be like, I don't know, you're the man figure it out. There was kind of that level of snarky, rudeness there because we were not holding each other's shadows. We were not in that compassion place of, wow, tell me your pain, tell me your fear. Sure. I knew he was abandoned by his parents. okay. Whatever. What does that mean? Figure it out. You're an adult now. I didn't get it. So, what I mean by our intimacy level now; now he can come to me and say, I'm having such sadness over the death of my brother. I'm having such sadness over the estrangement with my mom. I keep thinking back to being a kid and not having money and being abused and I still love her and I'm feeling conflicted around that. And instead of me being like, yeah, well, that's weird, whatever I get it now tell me more. And then same thing with me as I'm having my insecurities and my fears, I can go to him and say, I'm afraid, you know, I'm gaining weight. I'm aging. My business slowed down this month. Oh my God. What if it never picks up again? And then he can hold space and hold compassion for that around me too, because now we know each other is not perfect. And as silly as it sounds, there were so many years where I was like, I married the perfect man and he is perfect. And he would think I married the perfect woman and she is perfect. But then inside, we both knew we weren't perfect so we were always trying to live up to expectations that weren't real and now I know he's not perfect and I love that more and he knows I'm not perfect. And he loves that more.

Michael: Yeah. I think there's some truth to settling into the reality that, you know, especially in relationships, we put each other on these pedestals and we have these such high expectations because you know what date one week one, you know, month one, you're like, oh, this is the perfect person, this is the greatest person in history. And then to some extent, you play into that with each other, right? You role that, you play that facade of I'm this way or I'm that way. And then things get swept under the rug and the truth is like right there in front of you. And sometimes if you don't acknowledge it, or even sometimes it's known ledged by one person and the other person ignores it hears what they choose to hear. And I think that is one of the most dangerous things in a relationship is just the ignorance to reality.

Lora: Yes. And that's one of the reasons that I am, I love so much about what you do around trauma. I would see these things. I didn't know what trauma was and I didn't know how to respond to it. I was not trauma informed as humans we should be trauma informed, everybody on this fricking planet is traumatized in some way, and we don't know how to deal with it. So then yeah, he's having this huge trauma thing, I don't know what that is. I don't do. I can't hear you. I can't see you go away, and it shuts people down and it creates more and more and more and more trauma.

Michael: What would you say to the people who are gonna hear what you just said and be like, well, what if they're just using their trauma as an excuse?

Lora: There's such a fine line on that because yes, do some people use their traumas in an excuse? Absolutely. I think, it's just holding space for a certain amount of excuses because that's normal. But to be able to ask yourself, is there forward motion? Is there systemic change taking place? Are we really on this journey or is it BS? Because I know through our journey, we would read books, we would see counselors and then at some coaches, and then at some point we'd be like, I need a month off or bad things would happen and we would default into, you know, bad behavior but there was always that forward motion. And also, you know, you asked about some of the tools calling people out is in a loving way is such an important tool. And just the other night we had a disagreement about something and I called him out and he was like, yeah, you're right. And we have kind of some humorous ways that we do that now. And then just same thing then yesterday he called me out and then it becomes kind of a game, it's a spiraled game that, yeah, we're calling each other out in a loving way. We're not forcing and demanding change, but we're holding each other accountable, we're being partners in the true sense of the word because we're making each other better, more complete, people by virtue of the fact that we're doing it together and we're understanding.

Michael: Yeah. What role does the word respect play in all this?

Lora: I think respect is really important what role does it play? I don't think you can continue on in a relationship, whether it's a professional coaching, counseling relationship, a friendship, or a relationship, if you have truly lost respect for that person. Now that said people can do some things that don't earn your respect like, do I respect my husband's cheating? No, he made a horrible mistake multiple times, but do I respect him as a human? Yes. Have I done some unrespectable things of course, but do I continue to strive to earn the respect of those around me? Yes.