Healing After Religious Trauma | with Alyssa Grenfell

Michael Unbroken: One of the things that has been near to me is the exploration of not only religion, but God. One of the things that, as many of you may know if you've listened to the show over the years that I experienced, was growing up in the Mormon church, being indoctrinated into that experience and suffering pain in that experience that many people would associate and call religious trauma.

Today I'm very excited to talk about an ex-Mormon influencer, someone who has really just taken a hold of this conversation. And one of the things I want to just preface today's conversation with as you're listening is we're just here to have a conversation about the reality of our lives. We're not here to necessarily tell people what they should do with their lives or how they should see the world, but more so to maybe have you take some considerations, especially if you've experienced massive religious trauma. That said Alyssa Grenfell. Welcome to the show my friend. How are you today? 

Alyssa Grenfell: I am great. Thank you so much for having me. 

Michael Unbroken: I came across your YouTube channel initially, I want to say like a year or so ago.

So in my life and in my journey, I have been on this path to not only understanding my own spirituality, but also understanding kind of the healing around Growing up in the Mormon church, I suffered huge amounts of indoctrination, physical, mental, spiritual, even sexual abuse in the church. And I left when I was very young.

And it's one of those things that it often feels like this little inkling, this like weird sensation that kind of lingers around me. And I know this holds true for so many people. And as we talk today, we'd just love to know kind of the, the jumping off point. What's your experience been with the church and how did you walk down this path to be like, actually, I'm gonna talk about this publicly.

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, it, it is actually a pretty winding journey because from what I've seen of a lot of other ex-Mormon talking heads or commentators, people who make content often, they start doing it immediately after they leave, you know, within six months to a year. And I was out of the church for about seven years before I started writing my book, which is How To Leave The Mormon Church.

So for me, it took a lot longer, I think, for me to deprogram myself to the point that I was ready to talk about it publicly rather than just jumping right into being candid about my experience. I think I needed all those years of really learning about who I was and who I wanted to be and what I stood for before I was ready to take the plunge into expressing myself and talking about those things publicly.

Michael Unbroken: Why did you choose to talk about it publicly? 

Alyssa Grenfell: It started as a hope to help other people who had left. Kind of like what you have expressed with your experience. I think there are a lot of people from the outside looking in, you might think if you wanna leave a church, you should just stop going into the building on Sunday.

But anyone who's gone through a hyper religious or cult-like experience knows that it's not so simple as just, you just don't attend anymore. And so I think when I first left, I had a lot of people who then left after me approach me and ask for advice or guidance on how to tell your family how to even try tr, you know, drinking coffee for the first time.

And so I realized as after I left. And then I saw other people leave that a, a lot of people ask the same types of questions on their way out of the church. that's why I started writing How to Leave the Mormon Church. And it was inspired in large part by many of the conversations I had had with many ex-Mormons who left and then had to face just rebuilding their life from absolute zero.

And so it started as a goal to connect with other ex-Mormons. And then as I started posting online, I realized that a lot of people are just curious about Mormons, have met Mormon missionaries have, were baptized at one point, or are still in the church and don't know basic facts about Joseph Smith and early church history.

So it kind of took on a life of its own, past the book once everything on social media and the videos I make really started exploding. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, I relate to that a lot when, when I wrote Think Unbroken, my first book now over six years ago, I had already been on my healing journey for a very long time.

And I think that one of the weird things happening in social media, you probably see it too, is people are like healing in real time on social media. And I'm like, that's dangerous. Yeah. Like I always have said this, if you're crying on social media, you should go to therapy. and I think about this journey a lot because, you know, I think that we're meant to help people, right? I look at the journey we have in our lives and the most awful, some things that we experience, and, and I'm not saying this is to everyone, but for some of us, it's like we can take and transform that pain into something bigger and turn that trauma into a transformation where now people are going, Hey, you've done the thing I'm trying to do, that has allowed me to help thousands of people in coaching programs, millions of people who've listened to this show, but similarly to you. It all started with me. I was like, I need to do this work. And, and it was just kind of a lightning bolt moment where I was like, oh, wait a second. Perhaps I can help other people navigate this journey as well.

You know, there's a lot of theology in the world and I see quite often that. People are willing to accept what they're given without data, in fact, and I think that's a very dangerous way to live was there a turning point for you? Was there a moment? Because I think about, for me, there were these cornerstone pillars of my experience growing up in the church.

One, my mother was a drug addict and alcoholic. My stepfather as well, they were both viciously abusive. But when we went to church on Sunday, we were a whole other family. I grew up being a boy scout in the church, which I'm biracial, black and white. And I was the only kid of color in this Brownsburg ward in Indianapolis.

And I felt a lot of racial indemnification, and then on top of it, I was molested by one of the den mothers of the church. And when I went to go tell my family about it, they were like, don't talk about this. Don't ever tell anyone. And the reason why it wasn't actually protecting the church, but it was actually protecting the fact that sometimes, and Lord knows that the Mormon people are often amazing.

We got our electricity paid for, our heat, paid for food, clothing 'cause I mean, to say we were impoverished would be an understatement. And then, I read this scripture when I was about 12. I was living by myself in an abandoned house. My mom had disappeared. No one knew I was by myself. And I grabbed the Bible, I was reading the Bible, I was grabbing the book of Mormon.

I was like, why is God punishing me? Right? Is effectively what I was trying to understand. And I came across the passage, something to the effect of He with the dark skin will not be allowed through the gates of heaven. And I was like, oh, I'm done with this. and that was at 12 years old. So even though it was a shorter stint and I didn't become a missionary and I did not get married in the church and I did not do all these things, it was still such a foundational part of my life that was every pillar crumbled and crumbled and crumbled.

And then I was like, okay, I'm done with this. And I would associate all those things with religious trauma. And so I'm very curious for you, whatever you're willing and open to share, what were kind of the cornerstones that kind of brought down that framework that then made you reflect and go, maybe this isn't for me.

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think what you shared about, even in the Book of Mormon, how it says that if you accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is Mormonism, then your skin will turn from black to white and white and white and delight them is literally the phrase used in the Book of Mormon. And, and so I do have similar moments to what you're describing.

You know, I remember, when I was, uh, in high school, I came across a verse where Joseph Smith quote, speaking for God says he's gonna destroy Emma if she doesn't accept polygamy. And I remember asking like, oh, why? Why would God destroy Emma for not accepting polygamy? That seems like a thinly veiled, attempt on the part of Joseph Smith to just threaten her into accepting his secret wives.

I did have moments like that where I'd come across verses like this in the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants and ask, you know, what, what is this doing here? And there was always some little way they could tie it in a bow to make you feel like, oh, it's not that big of a deal. It's not, you know, the line they're using now is that the skin of Blackness referred to in the Book of Mormon isn't literally black skin.

It's spiritually black skin, which is still obviously quite offensive, but it's the only way they can retroactively make it. So it's not as bad as it obviously is. So I think I often allowed myself to get caught back up into. Istic thinking, which was, well, there's an explanation for that. You know, it was a different time.

Scriptural language is meant to be figurative and not literal. Things that really, you know, kind of continuously loop you back into belief. Even though when you first encounter it, it can feel very, you know, troubling and like the alarm bells are ringing in your head. So, I think the final straw for me was more when I started questioning God and spiritual revelation rather than the church specifically.

So it was kind of almost the cart before the horse because I started questioning God and then the church quickly fell after. but my experience with God was essentially that I kept receiving all of these revelations that I was. You know, thinking God is directly communicating with me, and then it would just not come true, or it was false. You know, one example is I received a revelation. I was going to go on my mission to Italy and then when my mission call came, it was to Denver, Colorado. And at the time I had thought I was as sure that God lived as I was sure that I would serve my mission in Italy, as I was sure as the Book of Mormon was true. When that didn't happen, it felt very surprising. And I, had enough of those types of experiences that I just realized that I'm taking whatever amorphous feelings that bubble up inside of me and assuming that's God talking to me. Even though it's just, my own emotions that I'm interpreting as God is one of the things that I had to.

Michael Unbroken:  Spent a lot of time in reconciliation around was this idea that, that actually felt really true to me, was that God hated me. Right? And, and that was just this experiential, I had a lot of experiential evidence that pointed to that being true. Right? Obviously, I shared some things with you.

Some things I will never share publicly 'cause they're just so dark. But as I, as I went down this path and this journey of, of self-discovery and understanding what I ultimately landed on was kind of coming to this recognition that every time I would try to speak about these things with people who. Sat deeply in religion, it would always kind of land in this place of, well, oh God only gives you what you can handle and everything is preordained and this is the way that it's supposed to be because of this.

And that to me just always felt like a, a massive struggle because it always would feel like, well then if that were true, why don't the things that I need, IE protection as a child, for example, why does that not ever happen? And so today I very sit, I I sit very much in this agnostic state and, and sometimes, I don't know, feels a lot easier than yes or no.

and even that can be a bothersome at times and I, I'll say this 'cause I talk to a lot of people about this. I've had a couple of posts go viral. I wrote a blog post about five, six years ago just breaking down all of my experience in the Mormon church. It got picked up all over the place, and people would reach out and say, Hey, I relate to this so much.

What is like the reconciliation process with yourself? Because it's effectively an identity shift that starts to happen, and I'm just wondering how did you, how did you see yourself versus how do you see yourself today? And then how do you just handle all of the new data, the new understanding, the new frame of who you are?

Alyssa Grenfell: I think one of my favorite parts of leaving the church was what I consider to be, finding all of the Mormon boogeymen and turning the lights on to realize it's just a boogeyman. It's not real. Coffee is a good example. You know, maybe a month after deciding to leave, we went and with my husband, we went and got coffee together.

And that was my first Mormon boogeyman where I had this huge thing built up in my mind that this was such an evil thing. You know, there was a conference talk from a Mormon leader saying that because this woman drank coffee, she wouldn't be able to be with her family in heaven. So the stakes of coffee, just coffee alone are quite high.

So the first time I tried coffee, it felt like, you know, almost anticlimactic because it was so mundane almost, you know, it was just a nice warm. Hot drink. I didn't grow horns or fall through the floor into hell. Uh, and so I think I had so many little moments like that, like, um, watching an rated movie, which in, in my family and in Mormonism, was a huge no-no, just watching, you know, watching a movie like Schindler's List that I had Al always wanted to see, but was no, never allowed to even consider because it was rated r And so lots of little moments like this where as I kind of, you know, doggedly pursued, trying these experiences that I had already told, always been told, like, you know, getting my nose pierced, was something that made me very evil.

I was able to start building a self-concept outside of my religion that was more based in what do I enjoy, what don't I enjoy? You know, who do I want to be? you know, what of this religion and religious framework is positive that I can keep and what else needs to be thrown away? And so it did really take, like, like you said, it, it took years of kind of almost trial and error of experiencing different things. You know, even information itself is very demonized within the church, so you shouldn't, there's certain books you shouldn't read. There's certain sources where you could, you know, if you were to get information about the church, you should only get it from approved sources.

And so there was a lot of, even just thought exercises, you know, not trying a cocktail, even just like allowing my brain to think certain thoughts and then realizing, oh, I'm just learning about myself, you know, pursuing information is not evil. And so there was a lot of trial and error, figuring out who I am outside of this religion. And also realizing that these things that I've been told are so evil and bad. Like spaghetti straps are actually just normal, normal, happy human things that don't make me evil. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. And it's a mind fuck because it's like you're sitting here discover, like literally discovering yourself in real time. I think one of the benefits to me, kind of being on my own so young, required me to have to figure out things very, very quickly. And so while there are certain things that I would do, like I would go out with missionaries and we would go and knock doors and, you know, all those things. And I would just always be questioning everything all the time.

And I'll never for I have this distinctly burned in my brain memory of being in primary school and having this conversation with, one of the women who like looked over all the little kids, I can't even remember what it's called at this point, but we were singing this classic Mormon song, popcorn popping on the apricot tree, which makes zero fucking sense to my brain.

And I remember asking why. Why is it that we're singing this song? Why is this the thing that we're doing? And the answer was just because, and even at such a young age, it was hard for me to accept answers. Like just because without a foundation and root of fact, my brain cannot process these things.

And what I found is that the more that I asked questions, the more I was, I was demonized, Hey, you know, you need to go and sit with a deacon. You need to go and sit with a missionary. You need to go and sit with an elder. You need to figure out why you are asking questions as a bad thing. Right? And it's because if, if you break that frame of indoctrination, it creates this space where people can think for themselves.

and you talk about the boogeyman, like that's such a dangerous concept. it's funny 'cause I was, I was listening to this podcast the other day and I wrote this note as I was in my car and I was thinking about like, one of the things that. And this is not to be an asshole. So I want to say this hopefully outta the kindness of my heart, but people who are religiously indoctrinated are befuddled.

When you insert fact and one of the things that I tend to lean towards is fact, but one of the things that I have found that happens is when you start to make this path towards yourself and you ask these questions, there are ramifications, there are impacts of this in your family, in your relationships, in your community, and with your friends.

And I can tell you with certainty, none of the people who I grew up with are in my life. Big part of it is because of this, because of the questioning, because of the, I'm no longer going to be in this indoctrination, even though I might be over here seeking my own journey. What has the impact of this had and this decision in your life when it comes to relationships with people?

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think, you know, I've had to kind of just make up my mind that ultimately it's really important to me to live and speak in the way that I choose. And that's a value that I've had long before I started, you know, speaking about this on social media, which is that making myself smaller to make other people more comfortable isn't really in my DNA anymore which especially as a woman in the church, it was very much part of my, what I would say, indoctrination to be taught that I was always gonna be second to men, always second to the priesthood holder, you know, um, always lower down within the hi, the social hierarchy. And so I think once I started posting, I just resolved within myself to say, I'm gonna say what I think and if someone doesn't, if whatever I do or whatever I say, or whatever I think is so horrible that people need to stop talking to me. Then that's the choice they make. But also, I'm not going to make myself smaller or more quiet in order to please or make other people happy.

And I think ultimately that's why the church does demonize voices like mine so much as anti-Mormon content. Because if they can control the narrative of people like me who are, you know, I see myself as someone that's trying to share information, share my personal experience, and help other people. Get information that helped me make decisions about my life.

But for them, it's like I'm this evil, you know, anti-Mormon zealot whose hell bent on tearing people away from their precious faith. And I think the reason they, characterize us in that way is because they really wanna make sure no one listens to anything we actually have to say. So if they can gate keep the information and demonize the source of information, they're ultimately gonna keep more people in the church.

And so I've kind of made my peace with knowing that for many people, I'm a really, really bad person because ultimately, I just fundamentally don't really care what they think about me. Obviously for my family, I feel more torn between the hurt my words cause and being true to what I believe, you know, but even still, really for anyone in my life, I think it's most important to truly be who I am and say what I think, rather than editing myself, whether I'm with my family, my spouse, people from the community who are religious. You know, it, it's important to me to maintain the dignity of my humanity and be who I am.

Michael Unbroken: That's a very difficult thing to do, especially at the beginning, right? Because now you're in this place of, here's what I always think about. You've got to be willing to understand that if you don't stand up for yourself, no one else is going to. And, and especially in this context, it can be so difficult because, I mean, when you're integrated into this frame of both relationships with family and friends, and then marriage, and then all of the things.

There's a weight that is associated with that. There's a pain that often can be a part of it because now you're stripping down what's known and you're rebuilding. And a lot of people will not accept that at all. and it's funny 'cause when I was, when I was in my twenties, I kind of sat very much in this idealistic space of, uh, fuck God, I'm gonna go get wasted, hook up with a lot of strangers, go make a lot of money, and this was like a literal thought I had.

I was like, I'm just gonna be as sinful as possibl. 'cause f*ck it, it's like literally where I landed. And then now I look at, at 40 years old, life is very different. I don't engage in pretty much any of those things. And I just feel like. If I can just live as the person that I am supposed to be, who I choose to be, like, that's where my freedom is.

That's where my power exists. But you know, I think one of the things people get conflicted at is this idea and this notion of if they're not in alignment with the doctrine, if they're not in alignment with scripture, if they're not in alignment with, you know, make sure that you're in all of these programs and events and church brunches and lunches and pensions, and you do all the things all the time.

I mean, at one point, like we weren't going to church like literally like four times a week and reading the Bible every single day, reading the scriptures every single night, and yet no money. Mom's a drug addict, stepdad's a drug addict, super abusive, all these things. And all I would ever hear is if you don't do what we tell you to do, you're going to hell.

Yeah, and that now that might be a whole other level than maybe you experienced or most people experienced. But it was always kind of this, this heavy weighing subject matter where it's like no matter what you do, if you don't follow exactly what we say we're, you're going to hell. And today, I can tell you with massive certainty, I do not believe in heaven or hell.

I do not believe that's a thing. It doesn't make sense to me. It's not logical. But that's a thing that people, because they're so exposed to and in indoctrinated into, I feel like that's one of the biggest fears in leaving religion, whether we're talking Mormon or not, because they're so scared of this idea that they're going to go to hell.

And I sit in this idea of going, okay, if there is this benevolent all knowing, all loving God that created us, what kind of asshole would he be to send you to hell? And like that. And that's such a crazy concept for people to wrap their head around. And so I'm curious is has that been a part of your journey?

How do you reconcile your relationship with these ideals of heaven and hell and, and if you live outside of these structures that well, you might be burning for eternity? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think, you know, I feel like in my mind a lot of people trade this life for the promises they perceive will happen in heaven or the afterlife.

And that to me is just such an outrageous gamble that you're going to commit your whole life on earth, which you know exists because here we are for a fantastical heaven that you're just hoping and have, you have faith that it exists. And the idea that you would. Sacrifice so much and change so much about the way you're gonna move through the world, basing your, all of your decision making on an afterlife.

If it doesn't happen, you know, that really sucks. You basically wasted your life because there is no heaven. And for me, you know. Mormon Heaven, speci, or Mormon Hell, which is really, there's not hell specifically. It's basically the worst version of heaven, the Esal kingdom. you know, Mormon, the Mormon concept of heaven is still hell for women.

You're still subservient to your husband. If your husband gets sealed in the temple to more than one woman, which he can. you're a sister wife, you're eternally pregnant, um, creating spirit babies, and you're always going to be beneath your husband. He's the king and you're his help meet. So, you know, even in the morn Mormon concept of the best version of heaven, it's still pretty hellish.

So I think, you know, whether you're looking at the question from a doctrinal point of view, if, if this reality came true, what would it even be like? Which is not great, or if you're just viewing it from, you know, if I stay in the Mormon church. This is the one life I have to leave, then this life was the hell that I was so worried about avoiding after I die.

So I feel like I also, like you said, I don't believe in heaven or hell. I think when we die, our bodies just go into the ground. And a lot of people say, that sounds so scary to, have to face. But to me it just means that for this life, it's so much richer and more beautiful because you're savoring every moment so much more versus I've met so many members of the Mormon church who are just like, well, my treasure's in heaven. You know, I'm just waiting out the clock here. And then once I die, things are gonna get good. And what a way to waste the one life, you know, that we've been, that we have not, that we've been given. 'cause there's no one to give the life. I guess our parents gave us life, but you know what I mean? 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. I mean it's a tricky subject for people, right? Because if it becomes your identity, it's like that's all, you know. That's who you are and those people, I feel a tremendous amount of pain for them in a lot of ways because it's like you're missing out on the truth of now you're sacrificing relationships, you're sacrificing happiness, you're sacrificing love, you're sacrificing the experience that life has to offer for the unknown, and I can really, truly understand the concept and the idea of faith, it's like you're, you're betting on the unknown and nobody knows for sure. And anyone, and this is what I always think, if someone tells you, they know for sure they're a liar, and you should not trust that person because you don't know.

And it's an identity crisis that presents itself for so many people because now they get trapped in the, well, I don't know. And I'm confused and I respect it because it's very hard. And especially if you, like some people, and I, I won't take this from them, they say, Hey, I feel it. I feel the power. I feel the calling, you know, I was baptized when I was eight against my own will. I'm like, was that the Holy Ghost just now? I don't know. Right. And it's like that's a part of the experience for me. But to leverage the idea that, and I'm not saying you have to go down this path of being barbaric in your life, right?

You don't have to go and rape and pillage and murder and you know all that to be opposite of or anti to everything that you've experienced. But the simple joys in life, like being able to be intimate with somebody that you love to have coffee, to have a drink to, you know, wear a spaghetti strap shirt to be tattooed, right?

It's like, okay, cool. Why is it that we can't be okay with that? And yet we'll do everything in our power to live life in this tunnel for the idea that we could have that thing over here and its self-discovery at its finest to get to this place where you can accept, at least this was what it was for me, where it was like.

I'm willing, I don't know if this relates true or not. I go, all right, here's the game I'm willing to play. I'm willing to play this game that's called, I might go to Hell. All right? And this is how the game is played. It's very simple. I am going to live my life in accordance with who it is that I choose to be every single moment of every single day.

And if I die and I am at the gates and God's like, bro, I tried to tell you. I'm like, you didn't do a very good job. And so because of that, if I have to go to internal damnation, so be it. But you should probably create some checklists and SOPs, how to better inform people of your existence. Like, I don't know, like actually showing up for once, and that's a thing that, and then because I'm honorary, like I laugh at this, but that's a thing that people get so tied into because it is in their relationship, it's in their marriage, it's in their family, it's in all of these things. I'm curious, when you made this decision, how did, and again, you don't have to answer this because I know it's a very deeply intimate question, but how did that impact your marriage? Because I have seen many times that you'll often find one person will walk away, one person might stay, maybe the other person doesn't, and it can create massive, massive, massive turmoil. And so, for people who are like, I want to do this, but my husband or my wife, like, how do you walk that path? And what did that look like for you? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah. That I think is one of the most challenging parts of leaving a religion like Mormonism because, you know, if you've made it as far as getting married in the temple and basing your, a lot of your relationship off of your faith, if one person decides they're don't wanna do it anymore, it often does just end in divorce.

I've personally known many people who have gotten divorced because of a faith crisis. and then I've also known, you know, people who stay together and maybe one person leaves one year and then three years later after having a mixed faith marriage. Then three years later, the other person chooses to leave and then they're both ex-Mormon and then it's like things are much more harmonious.

So people often struggle because they think, well, what should I get divorced? Or should I wait it out? Maybe this person is gonna come around to the same conclusion and it is a really challenging, I. Thing to have to try to figure out how to deal with within a, a relationship. And I was incredibly lucky because my husband and I decided to leave together.

So, you know, rather than having to stay up late, having arguments about whether or not Joseph Smith was a dirt bag, uh, we got to, you know, try coffee together for the first time and try drinking together for the first time. And so many of those firsts we really explored together. And so I think, you know, I think when it comes to a mixed faith marriage, that is a much more complicated question and scenario. I think a lot of people have been indoctrinated within the church to think that, you know, if someone leaves the church, they're evil, they're gonna cheat on you. They're gonna go out and spend all their money at a strip club and they're gonna lose their job and be a deadbeat and get addicted to drugs.

And you know, I think that those fears while to an outsider, seem somewhat irrational And even, you know, if you're the person with the faith crisis, you might think I'm not gonna become a drug addict just because I left the church. People who are still in have been very indoctrinated to view those who leave as spiritually weak. And so I think it's very difficult to overcome all the messaging about people who leave the church and how to still view the other person as a whole person that is still good, even if they no longer believe in the religion. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. And there's no guarantee that whether you're religious or not, that someone's not going to cheat and go to strip clubs and do all the, I mean, 'cause here's what I've just come to discover. We are humans. We're all having a human experience. We're all fallible. None of us are perfect. And to tell you the truth, some of the most disgusting things. I'll even frame it as people exist within that scope of religion, and it's almost on a daily basis now where you are seeing a lot of Mormon leaders who are being arrested for things like pedophilia who are being arrested for abusing their wives or husbands.

And you know, I mean, even now there's this crazy show on television, something wives of the, the lives of the wives of Salt Lake or something like that, and it, they're all swingers. And it's like, if you look at Utah, the meth consumption, the drug consumption, the porn consumption, the al the secret alcohol consumption is higher in Salt Lake than almost anywhere else in the entire country.

And you look at this, you go, well, why? And the answer that I come to is like, because if you tell people they can't have something, what do they want? They want it. You can't stop them from having it. And, and I don't think that. Whether or not you choose to walk down the path of spirituality or not has anything to do with who you are as a human being in regard to the experiences that you're going to have because for whatever reason, when we are drawn to something, we will do anything in our power to get it, and that's regardless of your faith. and I think that that can be a hard pill for people to swallow that just because someone doesn't see the same vision as you, doesn't mean they're bad, also doesn't mean they're good. 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think it really creates a lot of repression. So that's why there's more eating disorders, more child abuse, you know, when you have these hyper strict rules that say, you know, everything from human sexuality to reading books, you know, there's so many things that are, are kept from people that are gate kept, you know, things that are said are evil.

And so when someone, you know, just naturally becomes curious about any number of these topics and then maybe engages in them on some small level, they feel like they're very broken and it can, I think, drive them to even more extreme behaviors. You know, in the Mormon church, if you look at a Victoria's Secret catalog once a month, you could be labeled as a pornography addict, which is very that's a what a title to have to put on often a teenage boy that he's a porn addict, you know, for occasionally looking at a magazine, and these types of messages, whether or even, you know, girls one-on-one, you know, as a 15 or 12-year-old girl, I was sitting in a one-on-one interview with a man asking me if I was pure and living the law of chastity.

And these types of things are really stagnating our normal progression and growth and understanding of what it means to be a human and an adult. And so I think that it really, it makes the comprehension of just normal human behavior. It really pushes people, I think, towards more extreme behavior. 

Michael Unbroken: And I think that's why there's more swingers in Salt Lake than anywhere else in the country. Right. And it's like, because obviously, and that's hard because especially the, the frame of sexuality, like as human beings, like that's a part of our experience and arguably it might be the best part of our experience, and yet it's the very thing that we're told carries the most shame. and I'm curious because I had to walk down this path of recognizing that there had to be a separation for me between shame, that was based on things that I had done and then shame, that was based on things that I was indoctrinated to believe. These are not the same thing, and I think that so many people, especially when it comes to things like sexuality, to relationships, to who they date, how they look, their appearance, whether their nose are pierce, whatever it is, like there's a massive, massive sense of shame that is associated with the religious indoctrination.

I'm curious have you experienced shame? I'm guessing, yes. Obviously, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but how do you navigate that? Like when you're like, fuck, like this is a thing. Even today, I might feel shame for in the beginning you might have felt shame for how do you navigate that, that emotion and that feeling that comes up when in reflection of self-versus religion and spirituality?

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think it is interesting to think about because I was more guilty and shameful towards certain sins than others. You'd think it would be a equal playing field. But you know, I was ready to have coffee as soon as I left the church. I was really curious about it. But where being wearing a tank top or, uh, the first time I wore a bikini, I think was about five years after I had left the church because I had so much shame around my body. I have a picture that someone took of me wearing a really, it was a tank top, but it was a really thick, uh, strap, it wasn't a spaghetti strap. And I remember that when she took that picture, I was so worried out of my mind that someone that some of my family would see that I was wearing tank tops now, like such a sinner.

And I always call them my ex-Mormon nudes 'cause showing my shoulders literally felt like that's what it was. And I was so ashamed almost to even have a picture of this. Even though I wanted to try wearing tank tops or shorter shorts, it just felt like I just was consumed by shame and guilt when I would even consider it. And so, you know, it is interesting to look back at the different sins or boogeyman that you know, like that I had to approach and ask myself, do I wanna do this? Or am I hesitant to do this because I just enjoy having my body covered a little bit more and modesty makes me more comfortable? Or do I not wanna do this because I still view it as a sin because I was so indoctrinated to think my body was evil. You know, it took a lot of sorting through and that's why I say trial and error, you know, trying first like a very still very modest tank top and then moving toward, you know, spaghetti strap or something that is quote more revealing.

And so I think that part of me overcoming my shame was almost exposure therapy where I just had to try just a tiny bite of something, just like try a sip of coffee, try a tank top, but stay at home instead of going out and try exposing myself, try exposing myself to these different choices and self-reflecting and saying, okay, was I uncomfortable because I was indoctrinated into my religion? Or was I uncomfortable because I truly just didn't like it? And asking yourself those questions, it's a very time-consuming process to figure out how you really feel about something. 

Michael Unbroken: What if somebody is listening right now and they're like, yeah, I resonate with a lot of this. I'm having these struggles. I'm seeing the world through a different lens. There's this analytical process that's happening in me, maybe I know I'm atheist, maybe I know I'm agnostic, maybe it's all of these things. Where does someone start to begin to get confirmation about understanding who they are in respect to all of this? Like, how do you know, right? Like that's ultimately always the question, right? And I obviously I've realized you probably can't give the exact answer, but in your own journey, like how does one know what is right and what is wrong in their own experience? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah. I think the most helpful analogy I've heard to this question is that if you walked up to a river and dipped a bucket in the river and then pointed at the bucket with your finger, could you, could you point at the bucket and say, this is a river, you know, it's obviously not the river. It's, it's only part of the river. And I think that that's how I've come to view identity, which is that, you know, similar to a river, it's ever changing. You could very well pull a bucket out of the river and say, you know, I like painting, or I like to run, or I'm an ex-Mormon. But none of those things are really going to capture. Your full identity. And I think we try to do that with ourselves too like, am I an atheist or am I agnostic? I have to choose but really no matter what descriptors you pull out of the bucket to say, I am this, it really, it's really just a lifelong journey of trying to do question.

You know, do some tests, say, do I like this? Do I like that? You know, in the summers I'm this way. In 2022 I was this way and now I'm this way. And I think being more comfortable with the fluidity of the river and not trying to assign like this bucket is me versus these are all parts of myself and it actually is truly impossible to ever define. Every intricate part of a river and is, you know, you could point at a tributary, you could say these stones. That's one aspect of it. But to truly comprehend it is a kind of a different journey entirely than using words to describe, like, I am someone that lives in San Antonio, I'm a mom. You know, if I say I'm a mom, yes, of course I am. But does using that word to describe myself fully encapsulate everything I am, even if I'm trying to understand myself. you know, I think when I was Mormon, I was very black and white in my thinking and saying, I believe this. I don't believe this. And now I try to just, whether it's understanding myself or understanding what I believe in and who I am, accept much more of a gradation of.

You know, white shades of gray to black. And I'm less obsessive about, you know, the dogma of this is what I believe, this is what I don't believe versus, you know I'm gonna change. This is how I am now. I'm sure I'll be, you know, now I say I'm an atheist, but if in five years I start saying I'm agnostic, or someday if I say I'm Mormon, you know, I'm gonna accept, I'm never gonna go back to the church. But I'm happy to accept that all of those realities can exist within my one life. And I am not so doggedly obsessive about, I have to find the answer of who I am. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. I think that's brilliant advice because I think anytime that we're dogmatic to our own identity, like that's a hard game to play 'cause then you're gonna be in conflict of self, pretty much all the time and, I think it's fair to be dogmatic perhaps in some elements it's like, maybe don't murder people. I think we all can agree, like that's probably a good thing to be dogmatic about. But then the other elements of it where it's like if you wanna expose yourself to the unknown, that's where you're gonna discover who you are.

And when I hit this massive rock bottom when I was like 26, life was just completely upside down. I was very much a people pleaser. I was very much a yes person. A lot of the indoctrination that I went through came up through that because it was really, really hard for me to ever say no. It was hard for me to ever ask for my, once my needs.

It was almost impossible for me to ever be myself. And the only way that you become yourself is by becoming yourself. And if you're ident if and if you identify as someone who's dogmatic about self, you won't ever actually discover yourself. But I think that the dogma in it comes from a frame of fear.

I think that there's a lot of fear of the idea of rejection, a lot of fear about the idea that you aren't good enough. A lot of fear about that you don't matter. There are so many different things that we could intertwine into this concept about where the fear exists for people. I. How do you navigate the fear of figuring out who you are after this religious experience?

Like when you come into the world and you're like, you know what? I think I'm something different. I believe that over here, this is how I am. I need to go explore it. Even the spaghetti strap in the house thing. Right. For me, it was really based in sexuality. It was really based in money. It was really based in the freedom to just tell the truth. There was a lot of fear that lived for me, that slowly just dissipated through. Kind of what you said earlier, the exposure, how do you navigate the fear that comes up for you as you're like trying to figure out who you are on the backside of this experience? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, I think trying to center myself rather than the voices and thoughts of others I recently talked to somebody about who he was considering getting a tattoo, and he was like, well, what is everybody gonna think? And I think that our brains, you know, we're social creatures as humans are very primed to first consider. What others will think of our us if we do something versus what we will think of ourselves if we do something.

And so I think trying to drown out as much as possible, a lot of those voices that turn your mind to the reactions of others versus how you will have your own self-concept if you choose to do something. And so, you know, I think a lot of, especially in the beginning, it was about just kind of taking those tentative steps.

And I think now, you know, just accepting that I will just make mistakes. You know, sometimes I'll miss word something incorrectly during a video or sometimes even I have to stay long working on a video, so then my husband has to get my kids and I don't get to see them as much and I'm like, oh, I'm a bad mom, and of course I still have all of those. I still have mom guilt. I still have guilt, you know, from being human, but trying to at least channel that into, well, how can I do better next time? Versus everyone's gonna think I'm a bad mom or, you know, it's true I am a bad mom. But trying to kind of rework that guilt to be saying, what is this guilt telling me about myself?

And what do I need to change so that I'm more in line with who I want to be in the future? Versus just like beating yourself with, you know, a whip and saying, I'm bad. I'm bad 'cause I think religion also makes you feel like you should always feel bad about yourself. And I've tried to channel that more into how can I take this guilt that I'm holding right now and take it and learn about, okay, this must mean that I wanna prioritize work a little bit less, and I wanna prioritize my family a little bit more. So I'm actually using the guilt or the whatever the emotion is to learn about what is the feedback loop here telling me versus like, you know, the voices in my head are telling me I'm bad, so that means I am. 

Michael Unbroken: I mean, that's a help, that is the way to look at it, right? Because it's like, without the exposure, you won't ask the question. Without asking the question, you won't find the answer. And I think it's really easy sometimes to be afraid of the answer because it's a challenge of self. Because if you've been one way for your whole life and now, you're asking this question and then the question comes and the answer is not what you thought it was, it can be a holy sh*t moment for a lot of people.

You know, because I know the demographics of the show. There's a lot of women who listen to this show. There's a lot of moms who listen to this show, and I think that they probably have a lot of fear around the idea of maybe leaving the church, or maybe if they end up in a half-yoked relationship, or it's like, how do you navigate the children in this? And so I'm really curious, just for you, what has the experience been around motherhood and trying to navigate this massive shift in your life? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah. I think one thing that I am reminded of as you're sharing your experiences, I feel like I always call it the pendulum because when we are in the church, the pendulum is very high into the devout, hyper religious mindset.

And then often when we leave, it's ex the exact opposite. It's like doing a 180. So instead of following all the rules, you're breaking all the rules. The problem is that whether you're up on this side of the pendulum or the other, you're still allowing the church's dogma to dictate your life. And so even though you're no longer Mormon, the church church's teachings and reacting against them is still what's dictating your decision making.

And so for me, how that manifested when I was first out of the church was, I was very set on being a mom who worked out of the home. So, I was working really long hours as a teacher. I got a promotion to be an assistant principal. I was working like 10, 12, 11 hour days, I guess 10, 11 or 12 hour days or more working on the weekend, you know, and I was so depressed and so unhappy, but I was telling myself that in order to be a feminist, in order to be a better woman than the women I knew in the church that I could have it all and I could have this high powered career and have kids and be happy and be excelling in all these metrics and.

I had a moment where I realized that the only reason I was trying so hard to excel in my career was to kind of prove the stay-at-home Mormon mom narrative wrong and be like, I'm, I'm the pendulum, right? I'm reacting in the exact opposite direction, but I'm, the church is still dictating my decision making.

And so when I had that kind of light bulb moment, I realized that I didn't actually want to be working as much as I did. I just wanted to prove some, I wanted to prove myself, prove to myself that I was powerful in this way, in a way that I had al always been told I wasn't powerful. And so, that was kind of a moment where I, you know, after that year of being an assistant principal, I chose not to go back to work. My second child was born and I was a stay-at-home mom for probably two years, and then I started writing my book and making videos and it's evolved from there. but I think that that was a moment where I realized I'm only doing this because I'm trying to prove Mormon me wrong. And that's still. I'm still stuck in this loop and this pendulum that I wanna remove myself from this scaffolding entirely.   

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. And I think that's probably an experience for so many people. One of the things that comes to mind is we've look and you said, I wrote this down 'cause you said it, the church is directly dictating your decision making. I think that that's one of the things that gets really scary, especially around children. How do you navigate the conversation with kids about thoughts around religion, around spirituality, around God? And then on the other side of it, how do you give them the freedom to explore it on their own and to accept what they decide?

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, my kids are still pretty young, so my oldest is six, and we'll turn seven pretty soon. And he does, you know, we live in Texas. There's a lot of religious people here, so he does occasionally have questions and he also, you know, when we go to my parents' homes, you know, he'll see a prayer or he'll, you know, they'll go to church and, and things like that.

So we are still fairly steeped in a, a religious setting over here and people, it's funny how often people will ask me, you know, if your son, if your children went and converted to the Mormon church, would you stop talking to them? And I'm just like, that says more about you than it does about me. Because that type of question would never enter my mind. I would never disown a child for being gay, for becoming Mormon, for any number of choices because I ultimately, I believe my role as a parent is to provide a loving, healthy atmosphere and anchor, and their lives don't belong to me fundamentally.

I feel like so often when parents talk or parents are discussed, it's like it's phrased as I would even have power over my children to make that choice to begin with, which of course I don't. And obviously, even though I had. Hours and hours and years and years of religious indoctrination. I'm still an atheist. So no matter what you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. So I feel like for my kids, you know, when they have questions, I, I answered them very honestly. if my son, he recently asked about who Jesus was, so. I showed him some pictures. I explained Christianity, and then we also looked at what Krishna looks like and we went down a path of discussing other major world religions. And you know, if you lived here, you'd meet a lot of people who believe in this. And you know, mommy was raised in this religion, but I don't believe in God anymore. But my child might someday want to believe in God. And you know, if he asks to pray, he's never asked to pray.

But if he ever, if he ever got to that point, we would, you can pray. I'll teach you to pray. I'm not gonna pray 'cause I don't believe in praying. But you're welcome to pray. And, um, it's so funny because I just have never viewed my children as my possessions that I am choosing their entire life for rather, I view them as complete and whole humans. And so of course they're not going to sort of view everything the same as me. I can present them with information, you know, I'm sure there might come a point where one of their cousins shares something about the church with them and they get interested.

And I can share my experience. I can share information, but I'm, you know, I might even say, I want you to wait till you're 18 to get baptized. but I, I, like, I wouldn't say no, you know, I own you. You're my possession. I choose everything in your life. I would hopefully guide them and help them, but I wouldn't ever presume, I would never, you know, disown them for joining a religion.

I would never bar them from joining. I would probably say, you need to learn a lot about this religion before you join. You also need to learn a lot about, you know, whatever organization you you wanna join before you join it, because you should know what you're getting into. but yeah, I think for children that of course they're gonna have questions, but I think presenting it as, you know, God, some people believe in God. I don't believe in God. Some people believe in a different type of God. You get to dec decide for yourself, and that's how I typically. That's how I've at least, like I said, he's still six, so that approach may change as he asks more complicated questions, but that's how we've approached it so far.

Michael Unbroken: Yeah, I think that's a sage way to do it, because one of the things that I've seen time and time again is the more, and you talked about this pendulum, what a phenomenal analogy. The more that you push people into a frame, the more that they want to break it. And then that leads you down a path where your kids don't talk to you, where your kids ostracize you, where a long enough timeline, God knows what happens.

Right. And so it's one of those things where I think quite frankly, creating a space of indoctrination in a child's life leads them down the path to want to do the opposite. I get the idea that many people want to anchor family relationships and children around God's spirituality and relation and religion, but I also think it's a very, very dangerous game because you don't know.

And I think that so many people are afraid to just say, I don't know, and I think that because of that, it actually does more harm to family systems than good more often than not. I think that that's a individual journey, that's a family journey, that's a husband wife journey. Or however, your partner, I guess it doesn't really matter, but it's a, it's a journey that you discover within the process. And  I see so frequently and, and something that I've experienced as well is like, the more that it was shoved on me, the more that I was like, f*ck you. And I just think that's human nature, you know?

One of the things that I know that you've, you've done with much diligence is create a lot of content that is fact-based. I didn't want to go down that path with you today because you've made hundreds of videos on YouTube. You have a million followers over all of your platforms, like the information about Joseph Smith, Mormon Church, golden Tablets, all that stuff, it's there. And I appreciate you coming into this conversation from a human experience and less about the things that are factual in the church and more about the things that are factual about your life because I know that there are people struggling right now, not necessarily even just with Mormon Church and upbringings, but across the board and trying to figure out how to navigate all of these experiences in your life.

And my hope is that today we were able to just give people just some ideas and concepts to think about of how to navigate and handle these experiences and I think that you and I would probably agree there's. There's no right or wrong to the way that you live your life, except if you're doing it because you think you're supposed to, and instead of doing it because you know it's who you are and I think that if hopefully we give a few people a little bit of permission to show up more fully and authentically as who they are, they will find more freedom in their life.

They will find more peace in their life because I'll tell you this and I'd be curious about your feedback. I know we're short on time, but I look at my life today, I have these core tenets around who it is that I am based on courage, love, strength, and honor, and all of that has helped frame me to be the person that I am today.

And because of that, I feel freedom in the world. I don't always necessarily feel safe in the world. I've been through a lot of shit, but I do feel free. I feel like I gotta show up as me every single day. On the backside of this decision that you've made, do you feel more free? Do you feel more like who you're supposed to be?

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, that's a great question because, you know, at the beginning I talked about how, I had all of these moments where God would leave me in a certain direction and I would just really realize I had made the wrong choice. And the biggest example of that is my dad actually gave me a blessing, which is kind of like a man speaking for God that I should become an English teacher, which is how I became a teacher, which is, you know, like I said, was trying to excel in that career and then ultimately decided not to go back to teaching or education.

And it was through that, you know, that moment where I said, I'm not gonna be in education anymore because the only reason I'm even here to begin with is because of my father's blessing, that was really when I started working on the book, and then I started making the videos and I think.

Finally kind of dispelling that final, uh, relic of Mormonism. You know, teaching was a relic of Mormonism. The reason I was teaching was because of my dad's blessing. And so finally having the, the bravery almost to just walk away from education after all these years of building this career and having my husband's support and saying, Hey, you hate teaching, so I support you do find something you love, is what led me to, you know, where I am now making these videos and connecting with all these people.

And so, yeah, I think this is a long answer, but choosing so continuously to say, I'm going to root out these parts of my life that are relics of Mormonism and replace them with what feels much more true to who I am, has led me to doing this work that I feel really excited to, to be able to do every single day and feel very fulfilled by and even just creatively fulfilled, whether it's writing a, an outline or working on a thumbnail.

There's the creative aspect and then there's the helping people get information and connecting with other ex-Mormons. And it is truly so much, I'm enjoying it and loving it so much more than, you know, being kind of pigeonholed into teaching because that's what my dad said I should do. So I do feel much freer, I think that's a good word, than I have before. And I hope that in five years, I can say I feel freer in five years than I do today because the goal is to kind of continuously work on uprooting the parts of myself that aren't fitting anymore and replacing them with what feels resonant with what I'm supposed to be doing. 

Michael Unbroken: Beautifully said, I resonate with that tremendously. And my hope is that in five years yes, that will be true for you, for me, for everyone who's listening to this. Before I ask you my last question, where can everyone find you and learn more? 

Alyssa Grenfell: Yeah, so you can find me on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram under Alyssa Grenfell. And then my book: ‘How to Leave the Mormon Church’ is available on Amazon. I also have a Patreon, so basically if you just Google Alyssa Grenfell, you'll find me most places. 

Michael Unbroken: Yeah. Actually, you know, it's funny as I didn't Google you, and now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, 'cause I only ever just watched your content. Now I'm thinking about it, I'm like. Oh my God. The hate sh*t you must get and the blogs that have been written, like, I'm actually gonna go and do it this after this 'cause I probably understand that you've experienced some of the things that I've experienced and there's probably some people who don't like you a lot. That said, thank you so much for being here. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken? 

Alyssa Grenfell: I think what it means to be unbroken for me would be that kind of like, I mean, it's a great way of summarizing this whole conversation, which is to, in every day and every moment and every social interaction or thought to yourself, to myself, just continuing to work on honing in on how to become and how to live the life that I really want and how to use that to help other people.

And it's going from this cookie cutter, hyper devout, ultra-religious Mormon girl who in every thought was trying to figure out how do I be a good Mormon? How do I be a good Mormon wife or a good Mormon girl? How do I live my faith? How do I live up to God's expectations? And everything about myself was always trying to figure out what God wanted of me, what my bishop wanted of me, what my parents wanted of me, but never what I wanted of me.

And so I think to be unbroken would mean to now have myself at the center of my own life and have my family at the center of my own life and the things I love at the center of my life, rather than searching for some far-off dogma to be dictating how I move through the world. 

Michael Unbroken: Beautifully said, my friend. Thank you so much for being here, unbroken Nation. Thank you all so much for listening. If today's episode brought you any value, any awareness, any awakening, please share this with a friend because it's very likely someone else in your life may need it.

Of course, you can always message me anywhere at Michael Unbroken. Take care of yourself, take care of each other.

And Until Next Time.

My Friend, Be Unbroken.

I'll See You Soon.