How to Heal From Childhood Sexual Abuse | With Yemi Penn

Michael: Yemi Penn. Welcome to the podcast, my friend. How are you today?

Yemi: I am good. Thank you so much. Really excited to see what we co-create here.

Michael: Yeah, same. You and I had the opportunity to chat before we did this and your story, your transformation, your journey, not only through becoming this profound speaker and entrepreneur and business owner, educator is just this unbelievable journey through trauma and to triumph. And when I think about my own life, I always feel most connected to the humans who have. Done what it takes when I look at my life and my journey and being here today, I'm blessed in a lot of ways. I'm lucky in a lot of ways, but most importantly, I'm resilient. And so I'm wondering, I just want to jump off this conversation. I'm going to ask you a question, people ask me all the time, and then we're going to talk about your story and your journey, but for context, what is trauma?

Yemi: I'm going to start by just grounding myself because I felt myself trying to come off the floor. So I just, I'm in Australia. I want to acknowledge the original custodians of these lands. I'm on Camaregal land and just, acknowledge my ancestors as I speak trauma. I think trauma is something. I've never said this before like this. Trauma is something that separates us from who we are. That's one way I want to put it, but the one I like that I guess most people cerebrally would connect with trauma is a distressing or disturbing event that takes us completely outside our capacity to handle what happened. Those would be the ways I'd define trauma, and so that could be anything it's really on the individual and this is why the work needs to be done.

Michael: Yeah, I agree. And I save this all the time to my clients. It's like trauma is not necessarily the things that happen, but what happens with the things. And so I'm very curious. Tell me what's your background? How, what was childhood like? How did you get to where you are today?

Yemi: I've been thinking about this a lot. I've got two children. I've got a daughter who's going to be 17 soon. And my son who's 10. And I think of the life they're living and then I start to reflect on my childhood and I think I had a pretty good childhood, like really good when I think of what my parents were able to give me. And I don't know if I'm saying that now as a parent in hindsight, but I felt quite blessed, I did move around a lot. But we find out today in today's world and academia, that it's best for people to stay in one environment. I question that I challenged that as to how that informs our resilience. But I did move around a lot, I was born in the UK. I believe I went back to live with my grandmother in Nigeria. I've heard two stories that I lived with her when I was six months old and another story when I was two years old. So I'm still trying to piece this stuff together, Michael. But the truth of the matter is I would have lived in Nigeria, come back to London, probably gone back to Nigeria again, and then back to London in my early teens. And, I grew up effectively with five siblings around me. So six of us in total, but found out, under a decade ago that I had another sister. So in Nigeria, so it's, it feels and sounds fragmented, but I also know that this is actually the story for a lot of people in certain cultural aspects. I definitely don't want to generalize. But I still feel it was actually a really good childhood. Yes, there were events that happened that still leave a mark on me. And that's part of the reason why, and how I'm here today, because those traumatic events, those distress and events really were trying to define me and limit me for longer than I probably should have let it.

Michael: Would you, I'd be so curious to dive into those a little bit because I, one of the things I think about a lot is the humanization of the conversation and people get lost and they will often compare and contrast and go their trauma was, and I get this all the time, obviously, like I'm the trauma coach guy. I didn't get here by accident, to share the pain of my mother cutting my finger off, of being homeless, of being a drug addict when I'm 12 years old. That's the truth of life for me. And that humanizes us. And I'd be very curious for whatever you're comfortable with, of sharing what were some of those events that shaped you into who you are today?

Yemi: The biggest one that has really probably framed a lot of the work I do was would be the event that happened when I was about seven or eight years old. And I want to be really intentional here. I say events because it's the only incident I remember, I truly believe that I blocked out a lot. So there's an incident where I remember about seven or eight years old. I'm in Nigeria, I'm living with. My parents we always had people in the household, people who helped us get ready for school, whether it was the driver, we were fortunate enough to live well. But then we also always had uncles and aunties that were passing by and coming in. And my mom's brother, he would visit often. And I remember, one of my aunties, when he came in teasing me saying uncle's favorite girl, because he'd always call me and have sweets and stuff. And I only remember now as an adult that she would tease me for being uncle's favorite girl, which is what really indicates to me how often I was either being given sweets or being treated nicer or differently to the rest. And the incident I remember is. It was the evening, I was laughing with my siblings and this auntie of mine in the bedroom, and my uncle calls me. And even just now I can remember my body just getting really tight, ‘cause I knew something was about to happen that I just really did not like happening. And he calls me into the living room and it's dark. He's got the TV on. It's funny how I can remember quite a lot of the things, and there are some things I just don't remember. And this is where he would then abuse his power, his sexual power over me. And as a seven, eight year old, make me do things that I didn't want to do. So much so that still to today. It impacts how I show up as an adult, as a partner, as a sexual being. That is probably, and there would, there'll be other things that happened. I went to boarding school and felt extremely isolated, but that event of the sexual abuse is the one that I probably still have not integrated, but I know I am integrating continuously because it really separated me. It separated me in the sense that did not want to be seen. That's how I got labeled shy. I wasn't shy, I just didn't want uncle to see me, that was, that has probably been the biggest thing that's impacted me traumatically through, yeah, throughout my life.

Michael: Yeah that's such a incredible Story and I thank you so much for sharing that. Hey, folks, sorry about that. We had some microphone issues as these things do happen because we are recording in real time. And that is just what the universe does me. I want to go back to what you just said, because I think that's so incredibly important to look at and understand the journeys that make us who we are. And one of the really difficult things is that we do find ourselves in taking these experiences and pushing them down a lot of that is subconscious. We don't even know what's happening, it's our body survival mechanism, that's how we go to coping mechanisms, that's how we go to different things that we believe are things that we've integrated for safety, but even they hurt us sometimes. And so I'm wondering as you've gone through this to create a life that many on the outside will look at and go. She's unbelievably successful, look at these brilliant things that she's done. And she's a great mother and leader and wife and all these things. What, where did that really start? Like, where was the beginning of the journey for you? Because I feel like so many people, they just don't feel like it's ever for them. They're scared to start, and I'm just curious about where you began.

Yemi: For me, the journey to even thinking that I was worthy and I wouldn't have had the vocabulary. I just want to really be. Real here, like part of my vocabulary has only come because I've started to speak. But when I started to choose me was when I relocated to Australia about 10 years ago from now. So it was 2014, and it's the reason why I acknowledge the land I'm on, when I think of the first nations people here, there is something for me personally, spiritually that really drew me over here. And that was my first radical act of self preservation. Took my seven month old son and my seven year old daughter and moved over to Australia knowing, but two people was fortunate to get a job, but that movement of place, I needed to physically change my environment, I didn't know that then. And this is the beauty of coming onto podcasts because we get to share what we've experienced. I didn't know then that's what I was doing. But in hindsight, I was putting myself in a completely different environment to give myself a fighting chance. That space. The space from family, the space from friends, the space from sameness that probably made the, the symptoms and the causes and the effects of that traumatic event were just a lot more silent when I moved country. And that was when the work started, that was when I would meet someone, and even though I definitely couldn't afford it at the time. mentioned therapy. I'd never done therapy. Culturally, it wasn't something that we were encouraged to do. Therapy back then for us was always the church and Jesus and nothing wrong with that, but it just, it didn't go as deep as I needed it to. And that was then my first, and I paid for first year psychology students who were still learning. So I was lucky that all I had to do was pay 20 and I realized in the talking of what had happened and what was going on for me at that stage of my life was so powerful. It was like pulling a thread. And that then became that then really enlivened the curious rebel in me.

Michael: Love that. I think about this frequently. It's very much in alignment with my favorite book of all time. I've mentioned many times on the show is called The Alchemist. And there's this journey that we almost go on to go and tap into what is called our personal legend to effectively become the person you're capable of being. And I believe truly in my heart that begins with leaving your home. And for me when I left permanently, what I grew up in, I noticed almost immediate, I'll never forget this. I don't know if I've shared this on the show before. I'm in my car, it's a rental car. This is how broke I am, I don't even own my own car. I've rented a car to drive from Indiana to Oregon to go to one of the number one trauma therapists in the world. And I'm crossing the state line into Illinois. And for the first time in my entire life, I felt a immense sense of relief of anxiety being washed away. And of just pure joy, because what it was, I realized that I was making a decision to become me. And people were asking me in the lead up. Because I'd shared with friends, I was like, guys I'm leaving. I can't be here, I closed a business, I left a relationship, I had to pack up what little bit I owned into the back of a very small sedan. And I remember distinctly being like, I'm not running from anything. What I'm doing is I'm running to me. What was that like for you? Like in the beginning, right? Because I encourage people, I'm like leave your home. And so I'm just wondering what, even though it's scary, like what was the true value of that? Like just that experience and that choice.

Yemi: The truth of the matter is Michael, there wasn't, I needed to find out what the alternative was. I'm not saying anything new. We would have heard so many people definitely on your brilliant podcast. If you keep doing what we keep doing, we're going to keep getting what we keep getting. And I wanted something different. So I definitely had people say almost exactly the same thing, word for word, you're running away. You do know that you're running away that it and, The good thing is they said, whatever it is, I think I'm running away from is within me. There may have been some truth in it, but I love what you said. I was running towards me in an environment that would allow me to grow. I needed to know that growth, I'd already tasted a little bit of what was possible, what was capable in me, I was here trying to start businesses when I had my first my first child and. Yeah, it didn't make me millions, but it really opened something up in me that I could create something from nothing, even during hardship. So I already knew I had like really fertile ground. I just needed to maybe just move it a little bit so that it could grow a lot faster and deeper. And so for me, it was actually the fear of not tapping into what was possible. I wanted to know that I know in this body, in this environment, I just have this one life. There's enough data out there to show us that I just, I couldn't afford to not find out what are the possibilities. The fear was there, everything I do today, doing this podcast, there's still a little bit of fear and fear of judgment. Once again, nothing new, feel the fear and do it anyway.

Michael: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think constantly if that's the thing that I could shove into people's brains, their life would be so much different. But it, but you know this. And so let's dive into this a little bit, because trauma creates this. So I'm going to be talking a little bit more about that in just a moment, but first, I want to talk a little bit about what is fear response in us when we witness that being us going for our dreams, trying to become the person we're capable of is met with pain, suffering, hurt, loss, we subconsciously more often than not go, actually, I need to be safe, I'm going to move away from the thing that I want to do, even though I know that it will fulfill me when we think about the intersection of trauma and fear, how do you navigate that world? Like when you're in it, and you're like, I want this life. I want to heal, maybe find a husband, a wife, have a family, move to Australia, write the book, start the podcast, but all I've ever felt is that fear, intimacy, love, joy, hope, success, passion, fear. Like, how do you cross that bridge?

Yemi: Yeah. And you're right. Let's name it. If we can't name it, how do we know when we're working through it? So I think acknowledging that fear does exist. What worked for me, Michael was looking for other people who had done the same thing, there is something in community. And this is where I get really curious. I'm really curious about cultures that have different understandings of trauma, that is going to be some of my life's work is trying to understand how, some people don't even see trauma as other, cultures see trauma. They just see it as life. So what I try to do is go into community and find out who else is talking about this? Who else has gone through what I've gone through? What can I learn from them? Because once again, I'm probably going already deep into spirituality. We all have a connection in some way, as I've now found out, there is somebody out there who has, almost not our exact story, but has experienced something similar and they have wisdom in their story that I can glean from and apply to mine. So I just became so hungry for just a model, like someone like you listening to your podcast and hearing your story made me realize not necessarily, Oh, if he can do it, it means I can do it, but. If he can do it, I can do it my way. That was the biggest thing for me, because with my belief system, with how deep the trauma had impacted me, I definitely didn't think I could do it. But what I could do is dream about what was possible from hearing someone else's story. And that started to give me the audacity to even try to do something different.

Michael: Love that. I think that is like the cornerstone because when I go and rewind. So much of what I've built and created in my life, it has all been really done through witnessing other people do it first, because I'm a giant scaredy cat. I'm not gonna lie, I'm fucking terrified of everything, right? That's in my nature versus nurture, right? I grew up in a home where you cannot have an opinion. You cannot be a human being, you are less than right. And for me, fear is always in front of me. It's something that I've chosen to face relentlessly just with an acceptance that on my deathbed, I don't ever want to be like, Oh shit, I regret not living. And so if I'm scared, you just pointed to something that, that I want to stay in for a moment. If I'm scared, what I do is I raise my hand and I ask for help. I go find the person who has done the thing that I want to do. And look here's the secret to life that people don't want to admit because we feel like we're owed things just because we had something happen. You've got to put some skin in the game. And what I mean by that is one of my mentors once taught me, if you want to be in the room, you need to pay for the ticket or serve the water. And what that really means is that you always have to show up and be a part of your own journey. And so when you've gone down this path of learning from others to face your fear, to get permission, to grow, to have a guideline, what is it that you've had to do in order to get in connection with those people that you look up to or look towards for this information?

Yemi: First one is I had a rude awakening or something like that. I would have gone to a personal development event. Excuse me. I want to be really honest. I was one of those people that would watch, some of the greats, whether it was a Tony Robbins or Jack Canfield and those days as well, I would go to their event. And even though I had the money at the time, what I did not do is pay the real bigot tax, big price. Like I paid for the cheapest ticket. This is where I already was in my own development. So the first thing I did is I invested in myself, but I want to acknowledge that I was still like, yeah, no, but maybe not too much. Let me just go and see whether there's any value I can have. I went to one of those events and this is where I had the awakening. We would have been going through a process or procedure and I felt like what I call down though to come through immediately and something saying, what makes you think that all the people that came before you to give you the life you have today? So the Martin Luther King juniors, in my case, the Rosa Parks, the stories I've always heard, what makes you think that they did that work and you can now just chill and enjoy and not do anything for the next generation or other people? That was a rude awakening for me because I realized I'm still waiting for somebody to come and save me. I really, I didn't even realize that, that, that was actually in my DNA that I had, and once again, if I was to give myself a bit of empathy and grace, maybe I had been fed that because of how we are told we're to live. I call it the memo where, you get married, white picket fence, 2. 4 kids, nothing wrong with that, but it was always somebody else defining how my life should be. And I really thought that somebody was going to come and save me or tell me or give me that 10 million check. So the two things that were big for me, I invested in myself, even if I started small, even if I bought the cheapest ticket, I invested, I showed up fully. I showed up fully and I sat with the discomfort when I found out that I was the one that I was, I'm waiting for. And that really was a big impetus for doing, for beginning to do the work. I don't know if you know what your question was, but that felt like that was the answer I needed to.

Michael: Yeah. No, I love that. No. That's what it is, it's right. Investing in yourself and that's, here's what's so interesting about that. It's not actually about the money. This is the thing that people confuse all the time, right? Because with thinking broken, what we do, we've got thousands of hours of podcasts, unbelievable number of real courses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's if you really want to work with me, you've got to put skin in the game. And why? Because when I work with my coach, when I work with a Tom Bilyeu or David Meltzer or Tony Robbins, all of these men who I've worked directly with, you think it's free to go sit and have dinner with, and it's but here's, what's so fascinating at the beginning, as my grandmother used to say, I didn't have two nickels to rub together and it really started with me having the willingness. To do whatever it took to have that mentality, but the trauma had kept me so trapped. I just didn't believe in myself. And it wasn't until it was like, I just kept doing more and doing more that I slowly evolved, and then I became this person I am today, and I'm evolving into the person I will be next. One of the concepts that you talk about, but I think fits really well into this is this idea about this clean versus dirty trauma. And I think so many people don't really understand that there's so many elements and aspects to this, and I would love for you to break this down and let's talk about deeply what this means. What is clean versus dirty trauma?

Yemi: So I'm going, yeah. I start off by really highlighting that this concept came to me from Resma Menekum's work. Don't know if he's been on your podcast, but definitely should. I have no issue talking about people who have influenced my own research. He refers to it as clean and dirty pain, but I've gone a step further and just labeled it trauma. Now, the idea of clean versus dirty trauma is the fact that most of us, if not all, have experienced a distressing event pre 2020, pre the pandemic, we would have seen some statistics that say 70% of people would have experienced it in some countries or 60%. And this is just the Western world. So we're not even talking in other continents that don't necessarily have the privilege of collecting data. So let's just say 90%. I think it's a hundred have experienced it on that premise. We are either sitting with trauma unresolved, therefore dirty. And I don't want to say dirty in the sense of shame because we can get really shameful. And this is coming up in my research, really shameful. The minute we say something is dirty, it's dirty because it's just sitting dormant. It's sitting dormant in your body, in your mind, something's happened, you've either suppressed it so low, you've built a life on top of it, that you don't actually realise that you never went in there to have a look to clean it. Now the reason why it becomes dirty is because at some point you're going to blow that through someone else. At some point you will. Even if you didn't do it in this lifetime, if you believe in other lives, it's going to come back in another one and continues to be the work that you do. So the dirty trauma is the one that you have not even looked at, the one you will not acknowledge. And sometimes the one that you actively use to make decisions in your life, i.e. your relationships. My father treated me badly. So I'm going to treat this man badly. He's going to be the one to pay for what happened. This uncle abused me. So every uncle I see around children, I'm going to assume that is dirty trauma. And we will talk about, the transference of it, the clean trauma is the one is I've experienced this, I need to look at this. What is this doing to me? So when I tell people I clean my trauma daily, it means that for instance, if I take what my uncle did to me he's, his wife passed away a couple of years ago. Dirty trauma would have seen me say, good. I'm glad something bad has happened to him. No, I don't want to fault anyone for going through that, I don't think that's healthy. I don't think it does anything positive for your body, your mind, your psyche. But dirty trauma would have said that's one form, the clean trauma was I actually started to think about the kids. I started to think about the kids and how he would work with it. I also have cleaned my trauma enough, and I'm not suggesting everyone gets there quickly, to understand why what we call the perpetrator, and I'm yet to find an alternative word because I think that's loaded, perpetrator or somebody who inflicts and causes harm, what would get them to the point that they would do what they're doing? Unless I cleaned my trauma for me, which was to find out nothing I did was wrong, I am still worthy, I can be loved and what am I going to do now that I have experienced this? There are so many layers to it and it will make a lot more sense when we talk about this idea of transferring or transforming. To clean your traumas, to acknowledge it and start to integrate yourself back and not be split by what happened.

Michael: One of the things I think about every single day is acknowledgement and looking at that and acknowledgement is not culpability or responsibility, especially for the many things that may have transpired in youth. Like I look at my life, I have an ACE score of 10, like that's not my fault. There's a lot of heavy darkness in that experience. And yet over here on the other side of it what have I been able to do? I've been able to transform that trauma into triumph. I've been able to stand on the biggest stages in the world, help thousands of people. But most importantly, I've been able to look in the mirror and be okay with the reflection on the other side. Because even though this trauma concept is this theft of identity, this loss of innocence. At some point, you have to take a really hard look at it and say, this actually happened. And while I always tell people I only share a very small portion because most of it's too dark for me to share publicly, like what I've done in my personal life is just constant cleaning again and again. And even now, because it's like Bishop TD Jake's amazing speaker, man that I love dearly. Something I think about every day. He says new levels, new devils, and that's so much of what this journey is. And so let's talk about this, right? This process of cleaning. Now there's this idea that you have that I actually resonate with tremendously. You have this concept of transforming versus transferring. Trauma, two very different things. But I want to talk about this process because let's give some people some things that will really help them today.

Yemi: So I want to highlight that we tend to think we live in a binary world. So even though those two options have been given of transfer or transform, just take them as options because there might be other alternatives. I want to highlight

Michael: Great point.

Yemi: The process for transferring or transforming is knowing that most of us have experienced something distressing. We should just start with that question of, did something happen to me that keeps on driving me and my life and my choices in a way that are not desirable for how I am showing up in the relationships I have. That's the first bit, just the acknowledgement, just check. Some people would say how would I know? You will know if patterns keep on happening over and over again. If that relationship keeps on failing, if that business you keep on setting up keeps on failing as well, it would be an invitation. The other thing is your body will tell you. I usually know when something or fuckery is afoot that my right shoulder starts to hurt because I've got a rotator cuff injury. It should only hurt when I'm working out, but for some reason, when it doesn't. When something is stressing me out, it comes through your body will tell you. So acknowledge that the next thing is to get curious just be curious. Just, back in the day, say curiosity killed the cat. Cat had nine lives. Take a risk and just be curious and go a little bit further and say, okay, what is that doing to me? Is, what happened to me? Is it impacting how I do X, Y, Z? Is it contributing to this cycle in this pattern that keeps on coming up? And be radically honest, radical honesty is all about our own liberation. It's not even about someone else's radical honesty is just being really real. As to why you are doing what you're doing. And if you don't want to tell anybody, that's fine, just tell yourself. Because when you answer radically, honestly, whether what happened to you is negatively impacting your life, hence the cycles, then you start to be able to do the work. Because if I'm to now give an example of what transference and trans, transformation of trauma looks like, It, I want to give some really diverse examples. Was being abused by my uncle. However, when my daughter was, and she doesn't mind me sharing this story in her early teens, I noticed some marks on her wrist and I left my body. As in, I literally remember we would, we took my son swimming, so we were watching him. I left my body because for me, what that looked like with the welts I'd seen on ancestors or on their back. So it, it did something that just made me completely disconnect. I didn't know what to do, I called up a therapist of mine saying, is there any way you can talk? So I did something. It was, I wanted my daughter to speak to someone. But what the therapist noticed is that I wasn't even in my body when I was speaking, I had become a robot, I had disassociated, which was my mechanism for dealing with anything that was distressing. So that can be a form of transference, even though it was not the same trauma that my daughter was either experiencing or that I did, my response to things is the same way I respond to things, wanted to mine. People assume that to transfer something means you must become the same perpetrator of what happened to you. No, it could actually be how you handle it with your children and in relationships. And that then required me to go to see my psychologist, which really was an impetus for making the documentaries that I've made. Transforming is what you are, what I'm doing, which is speaking to thousands, which is investing your time and money to create a podcast and a platform to give people the opportunity to do something with what happened to them, but to give back for me to transform is to say, you know what, this happened to me and I'd really hope it doesn't happen to other people. And I'm hoping that you will come on this train as well, it's a part of contributing, that was long, but necessary.

Michael: No, good. I love it. And that's human, right? That's really what I think that it is, because when I look at the, kind of the precipice for this whole thing that I do, it was all baked into this notion of can I do this? Do something so impactful that it would actually change the world. What do I mean by that in a deeper sense? Cause like I got nuanced in it and I asked myself a question. Can I create them enough content and information that on a long enough timeline, I would in generational trauma forever, thus making myself obsolete. Meaning that another child would never suffer the experiences that I had and that's so much about what the journey is for me because there was a transference in a very negative sense for a long time where the energy that I had that was unhealed was touching everything. It's when you see in a movie where the bad guy drops a piece of oil on the ground, and then it consumes all the land, that was my entire teens and twenties, right? And then now I look at it, and it's about the transformation. It's the same way why, even though I can look down at my hand, and this finger that's partially missing, and the scuts and the burns on my body, I go, actually, what I've done is I've taken all of that negativity and I've transformed it into something that is greater than the experience itself. And the hard part about that, and I want to be clear about this, and I think that you'll agree with me. You don't have to go the path you and I are going. Sometimes the transformation is you don't spank your kids, you don't yell at your husband, you don't get in debt, you don't become morbidly obese. You don't smoke cigarettes, right? Sometimes the transformation is taking that pain that was caused you and removing it from you.

Yemi: And so Stop it.

Michael: Talk to me a little bit more about transformation. So much of the theme of my life has been in transformation. I hate that people feel like. Somehow I'm special or you're special, I'm not saying we're not, ‘cause I'm fucking super special. I've done some dope shit, all right.

Yemi: You better say it.

Michael: But what I am saying is so are you and you have to face that fear, but I have this inkling of a hint in my body that says people are more afraid of success than they are a failure. And so I'm just wondering, like, how do we actually transform? What does that look like? If you were to be like, all right. Do these two things, three things what would I do?

Yemi: I love it. Oh gosh. I feel you just spoke to me. I'm still working on my fear of success over failure, but let's come back to transformation. The best definition I have for transformation, which will allow me to define some of the steps is shift in perspective. It's feel so simple, so achievable to anybody, like how, if you could just be standing straight on transformation for you can just be literally turning a couple of degrees to the left because then your vision is different. So I just want to highlight that, that if you want to transform anything, you want to transform your bank account, your relationships, you are just going to need to be open enough to shift perspective. One way that I think transformation works. Brilliantly. It comes from liminal thinking. It's this idea that you need to suspend your ego. And I know that sounds once again, heavy or light to suspend your ego. All I'm saying is I want you to just play the game that let's just say you do not know, or have a grip on all of reality. Is to assume you do not know everything that's happening to assume that there is part of your vision or part of your perspectives that is unknown to you. The minute you can accept that the minute you can suspend disbelief is the minute other things start to come in, whether you believe in a higher being or spirituality as a minimum, start to believe in yourself. There are so many things in your unknown that are waiting and open to working for you, but most of the time, we just need to be aware that we don't know. And that's what allows us to shift our perspective, ‘cause when we shift our perspective, I'll give an example, ‘cause I love examples as a good way for people to actually apply it. I went to another event and I heard someone say, people always talk about think outside the box because I was thinking, how can I change my life? I need to change, I'm single working parent, I've been doing that for all of my daughter's life. I felt like I was struggling and I was trying to figure out what to do with my businesses, but I was just, I was in this tunnel vision because I believed I knew everything. And I don't mean that in a really arrogant way. So many things that happened to me that for me, this was truth, so when this guy said, people say, think outside the box. I was getting cute. I said, yeah, I think outside the circle, I think outside the triangle, I started giving different shapes until he said, there is no box. And my mind got completely blown, but for two reasons, the first reason was you're telling me. That even if I make my box bigger and there is no box, that means I have no constraints. That means I have no safety, that was the first thing that came through, that was my shift in perspective. I had a shift in perspective that I need a box in order to feel safe. I needed to change that, what happens when there is no box? Then the other part was the excitement. Okay, if there's no box, that means I've got free reign to be creative. So I now dangle with this fear and excitement, to transform is to suspend your ego. Assume you do not know everything and just tilt yourself a little bit to the left. Pretend as if there is no box and try to get curious about where does that fear come from? Do you feel you can only do your best work if you're in a box? Question that. Look for people who are doing it differently. And who would you become knowing that there are no boundaries? You're outside of your five senses.

Michael: Yeah, and it's a huge part of that is suspending your own reality. And what I mean by that is people want to live in a fantasy world, which is very dangerous game to play, but sometimes they are so close to reality. Yeah. That they don't even see the potential to have the fantasy, and so it's this really interesting dichotomy or maybe juxtaposition of looking at life through reality and fiction, holding both true and then deciding which one you want more. Because on the one hand, you can look at your life and be like, okay, I was homeless as a kid. I was a drug addict when I was 12, I lost a million dollars by the time I was 25, I was 350 pounds, blah, blah, blah. All these things were true for me. And then I could look at it from the other side and I could go, actually, I think I can do that over here. I think I can shift my life, I think I can be this person, but I'm going to need evidence to support me in that, that is possible. And you're at this event hearing. There is no box, I always go to the Matrix, which I know everyone's heard me say on the show a thousand times, but the concept that there is no spoon, and effectively in the film, it's a moment where Neo is going to see the Oracle. He's about to find out whether or not he's destined to be the one. And the short of it is the Oracle says something to him. At the end of the day, you don't believe in this fate crap anyway, and what that really truly means is that the reality of life is whatever you want to create it and nobody chooses the life that they're born into, but you choose what you do in this moment and what you choose in this moment is letting go of the reality that you don't know everything because what most people think they know. Especially people who have suffered traumatic experiences, what most people think they know is lack, shame, guilt, pain, hurt, suffering, dismay, ugliness, disasterness, that drop of black that floods everything, and they, and what I'm challenging people here today with you, and in this conversation is to recognize that maybe you don't know everything and the things that you don't know will set you free. And so I'm wondering for you, what is your biggest transformation?

Yemi: I love that. Oh, my biggest transformation. I don't think I can just give one. There's two, there's one that's like the being biggest transformation has been my role as a parent, I feel like I have a contract with my kids that I make every other week. I'm so radically honest with them in the sense that I tell them what they need to know. But they also know that when mom's cup is full, I can give, and I'm able to say this in a way that doesn't make them feel guilty or feel bad. The biggest transformation is my shift in how I can become, a good parent to my kids, knowing that at some point they're going to grow up and potentially have experienced trauma even at my hands, either by doing something or not doing something. And I know that's a heavy thing to say, but this is how realistic I want to be because I'll tell you now that because even though I don't think it's just been a response to trauma, but I'm a bit of a nomad, I love moving around a lot. But then I found out real quick that my moving around a lot had my daughter go to six primary schools in Australia, in the UK, where we lived. There are only six years in primary schools. It shows how much I moved and it was creating chaos for her. So at some point she's probably going to grow up and say, wow, that was a lot. I wasn't able to form friends, but I'm aware of it. Like I do this thing called trauma mapping, something I want to release in a couple of years, which is, for us to map what we think may have actually impacted our kids. What may have impacted us to look back on it, that idea of it has transformed. I've shifted my perspective of, Oh shit, this is going to be an issue. They're not going to like me too. What would it look like if we had this conversation now in love? What would it look like if I could change? So because I love change and I love traveling a lot, I've created stability. So we have a home where the kids stay and they can go to school, and I have nannies and babysitters that help me for the times that I want to go. And they know that when I leave and I travel, it's not me abandoning them, it's me filling my cup. But rather than assume I'm having the conversation, that's been my biggest transformation. The shift that my model of parenting does not need to be the way the world says it needs to be the way I build it with my children. Yeah, I probably would leave it at that. That's actually been profound for me because freedom is my highest value and what scared me was that my need for freedom could make somebody else feel abandoned. A shift in perspective really changed that for all of us.

Michael: That's such an important thing to take into consideration. And you said something that I want to sit in for just a second. Ultimately, you're going to traumatize your kids, whether you like it or not. And I wish that people would just recognize that for a second, you want your children to suffer a little bit. I think now, look, let me be clear. I don't have children, I always want to preface that, but I just, I look at the people who they have to figure out how to navigate the world and their parents allow them to fall down. And those people just generally speaking, become more resilient and they're more able and apt to, to navigate the world, not saying maybe, I don't know, you put your kids intentionally into some precarious situations, but ultimately you do want them to be able to navigate. However, it's also like you just said, being cognizant of yourself first, if you don't know that you need your own cup filled, then you will never be able to serve at your highest potential. And that's a hard thing to do. So many people, especially who had traumatic experiences or women or single mothers or even single fathers, they're like, I want to do the best I can, I'm overloaded, I'm exhausted, I'm dealing with this. And then what I see happen all the time, I see this, especially with the men I coach and they get to this place where they forego themselves, where now they've put themselves on the back burner. I know women are just as guilty of this, obviously, but I coach a lot of men. So I see that, how do we put ourselves first when we are parents who come from traumatic backgrounds, when our first inclination, I'm assuming again, not as a parent is to protect our kids at all costs, but then we sacrifice ourselves.

Yemi: I want them in order for you to find out how to look after yourself. I want you, the listeners, however long into the future, you're listening to this to think of recycling trauma because every time we tell ourselves we want to give our kids what we didn't have, we are potentially disabling them to be able to do things with themselves to build resilience. That's number one. So this is the shift in perspective I'm offering. Just sit with that, the idea that in not putting yourself first, you are potentially contributing to the recycling of trauma in a different way. This is transference in a different way. That's number one. Number two, the question I always ask people, parents and you don't even need to be a parent just in general, your contributions to other generations, what you are doing or not doing to yourself or for yourself. If the person you love the most outside of yourself was doing that, what would you say? Most of the time they'd say, I wouldn't want them to do that, if you have left your health, how you eat your mind, your body, if you have neglected that. What do you think the children you are doing and working so hard for are seeing? They're going to grow up and want to be the parent, like what their parent was for their kid. It's called recycling trauma. There has to be a different way. We can find a balance. If you will not let the people you love the most do what you are doing, then I'm telling you to get curious, shift your perspective and find out what that balance is that you look after you and you can look after them. That's what I would say.

Michael: Let's say that someone is listening who they didn't get this information early enough. And they have children and they have transferred a lot of their trauma in a very painful, hurtful way. Maybe they have spanked their kids or yelled at them or worse, right? I don't want to label anything beyond that. People can use their imagination. If you are that parent, what do you do?

Yemi: Yeah. Can I just say I love you for bringing that up? I don't know, I used those words intentionally, you really brought something up that a lot of people are not bold enough to say, because we will have done it. We will have done things that we're not proud of, the first thing is grace. Grace is that, and I know you've heard it all before, but sometimes we are doing the best we can with what we know. But when you know better, not just do better, be better. So give yourself grace, but then acknowledge that you now know it and start doing the work, is it therapy? Is it getting a coach? What is it that you can invest in some way to continue to help you to unlearn those patterns that you thought was the only blueprint you could. Take from that's the first, that's the first thing and then go the next step towards healing. Try and do it outside of a moment when you're in the raw or the heat or the solemn or the depression. Can you go and heal with the person in which you may have inflicted pain on your kids? In this instance, is there a conversation that could be had like, I want to put this out then. Didn't think I'd ever say this out loud, there was a time and it was only a couple of years ago. And I grew up being spanked when my daughter did something that really terrified me and I slapped her, I'm saying this out here because I'm a leader, I can't afford to bullshit. And you've brought this up and it brought something up in me. I did, and I felt in my mind, I justified it because I felt it put, her brother in danger. But what I realized the minute it happened was, oh shit, because it almost looked, and this makes me get emotional, it almost looked like she felt she deserved it because of what happened. And that minute that I saw in her eyes that she thought that, I thought, fuck, I can't have her grow up. And then have something like that happen. And we talk about domestic violence and think I deserve it. So the next day, immediately, they say, if you can try and heal something by talking about it within the first three hours, then six hours, then three weeks, it gets this is when you can really make change. I said to her, you didn't deserve that. I could have managed that a different way that did not require me to raise my hand or do anything. And I said, I never want you to feel like you ever deserve that for any reason. Now, most people won't talk openly about that because we are so quick to cancel, but you just bringing this up just made me think, let me step in into my leadership role. So what you say is grace for you, knowing or doing the best you can, but then being better and trying to heal it ideally within those three hours as a minimum three days. That's how you start to shift and transform.

Michael: And I first thank you for sharing that it's, as they say, it's really truth that will set you free. And my hope is even for you sharing that in the moment, it brings you a little bit more grace in your own journey. And the thing that I come to a lot look I'm a leader. I've coached thousands of people. I've sold thousands of books, millions of people, I fuck up all the time. I can't even tell you I have some days where I'm like, should I even be fucking doing this? I don't know, you know what I mean? Should I be on stage in front of 3,000 people right now? And then it's yeah, but I'm human, and they're human too. And to err is to be human, and we forget that, and we live in this hyper socialized world of perfection and lies, where it's yo, the shit that people are really going through never sees the light of day. For your vulnerability and for sharing that because what it really does is it eliminates that thing that even as in leaders and talking about trauma, we admit like, Hey, we are human. We're going to make mistakes, and my hope is maybe people will hear what you just said. And what I try to share publicly and understand that like our trauma isn't bigger than yours and yours isn't bigger than ours. And we all have this individual journey and the more that you're willing to acknowledge it again, coming back to where we started this, the more that you ultimately set yourself free, because the truth of the reality is, and sometimes in those moments when you have that here's what's so crazy. That moment wasn't anger.

Yemi: It was fear, yeah.

Michael: That's the thing that people don't leverage enough is understanding like fear is such a provocateur of the chaos of your own mind.

Yemi: Ah, yes. I just that distinction, Michael is freeing. And what if we could use that wisdom for all the other trauma that's going on in the world? For all the other people who are inflicting unbearable and unthinkable pain on others. What if that became something that was really part of, I don't know, government and community action plans? How do we tackle fear? Why has our brain not updated itself to knowing that, that lion isn't coming to get us and that, that thing that we think is going to happen actually isn't that bad. It just, that distinction is really important. And if that gives anybody listening some form of relief, please take that in. That's the shift in perspective we're talking about. That's the transformation of, I'm not actually angry. I'm fearful that I'm going to lose control of this environment and this safety. So let me pause for a second. The next time I feel my body rise, that is enough to reduce so many traumatic events that happen in our world.

Michael: Agreed. And I always come back to the pieces in the pause. You ask any of my clients over the years, I always profess this. Just find a moment, be being reactive is how you burn your house down. And how do I know? Cause I've done it many times, and so I would encourage people to like, recognize this journey is a journey. I'm 15 years into this game, you're a decade plus into this game. You're on your process and we're still learning and I can assure you there are more lessons to come, and if you're willing to be like accepting of that and continue down the path, even within the framework of the fallback and the slide backs and the slips and the mistakes, like you will eventually come out the other side. My friend, this has been a beautiful and amazing conversation, I appreciate you greatly. Before I ask you my last question, where can everyone find you?

Yemi: I am quite vocal on Instagram. It's just @yemidopenn, but I'm sure it'll be in the notes and also on LinkedIn as Yemi Penn. But that's where I love to speak to people, create safe spaces and talk about everything curious and rebellious.

Michael: I love that. And everyone, please go to think unbroken podcast. com where you find this and more in the show notes. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Yemi: It means kintsugi. It means that broken vase that was put back together with the golden threads through it. That's what unbroken means to me, which is we will all be fragmented, but the joy and the beauty of being unbroken is being put back together with gold.

Michael: I love that. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you for listening. Please remember when you share this with other people, you're helping us transform trauma to triumph, break down to breakthroughs and helping others become the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time,

My Friends,

Be Unbroken.

I'll See You.