How to Heal From Near-Death Trauma | with Phoebe Pierpoint

Michael: Hey, what's up Unbroken Nation. Hope that you're doing well, wherever you are in the world today, very excited to be back with you with another episode with my friend, Phoebe Pierpoint. My friend, how are you today?

Phoebe: I'm great. It's been so fun to be in Vegas.

Michael: Yeah. Welcome, welcome. What's super funny is last night I'm getting on an aeroplane to fly from the speaking event that I was doing in Pueblo, Colorado of all places, had to go to Colorado Springs. And as I'm getting on the airplane, I start seeing this person waving at me like apparently I'm on fire. They're like, Hey, you're on, Hey, look over here, and it was you.

Phoebe: It was. I recognized you immediately when you walked on the plane. I said, I think that's Michael Anthony. And my husband was like, the podcast guy said, yeah, that's hilarious.

Michael: That's the universe, right? The energy, I believe in this fully and we had this fascinating conversation last night, which was like a fun precursor to this. I believe that the energy that we put out is reciprocated and that because it is reciprocated through the fabric of time and space or whatever it is that we're existing in, you're going to be in parallel with people who vibe with that same energy. And so for context, for those who don't know, a couple of weeks ago, I had you come on my Wednesday Instagram live conversations with Michael show, and I was just blown away by your story and your journey. And I was like, I have to have you come on the podcast because, you talk about This idea of facing the most horrific adversity to come out the other side, being able to not only be seemingly whole, but to be creating an impacting change in not only your life, but in the world in a lot of ways. And I was like, that's powerful. So as we get into this, tell me, cause I want to create a little context as we lead into this incredible journey of yours. What's your earliest memory that you feel like defines you today?

Phoebe: My earliest memory that defines me today was when the rose colored glasses came down about my family life, and I distinctly remember we, it was Christmas time, and we had so many fewer gifts than the previous years. Because I think my mom for so many years was overcompensating to make it look like our family was in a good place by giving us so many gifts to distract us from what was really going on. And I remember distinctly realizing why don't I have so many gifts like a bratty child, right? And I actually had a conversation with my mom about it, and she explained to me that all of these things about my family that I had no idea were going on. And as a kid, realizing that sort of that safe place that you thought was safe is not actually what it really is. And almost everything about my worldview at that time came crashing down, and I think that it had an impact of realizing that I wasn't safe. And I think that is what from then on, I was working so hard to achieve and find again in my life, and especially in my adult life, feeling like I was never safe, and having to build things around me to find that again.

Michael: How old were you?

Phoebe: That's a good question. I've blocked out so much of my childhood memories. I was probably junior high, so maybe 11 or 12. Old enough to start to see what's really going on in the world, but also still be innocent.

Michael: Yeah. That's how that age works to where, the innocence starts to fade a little bit. Especially we're very close in age. So we're growing up with the internet and American pie and the chaos of that weird turn of the century heading into like the Y2K. And it's, I look at those years and. And that I feel is a very susceptible age to the chaos of reality because suddenly you're starting to be cognizant of things. You're starting to make meaning of things. You're looking at life through the scope of wait a second, maybe everything I thought to be true isn't actually true, and what you said, I think is really powerful is it led you to this place of seeking to create safety. And. I think was safety. And this is something I've pushed into creating in my own life over years can be this really fascinating catch 22 slash double edged sword. Because on the one hand, you're like, I'm going to take care of myself. And on the other hand, it's you're probably creating these massive walls. And so what is that journey like? So you have this moment of clarity, this conversation with your mother, what it started to happen after that?

Phoebe: What I associated safety with at that time was I channeled it into achievement, so I became a massive overachiever at just everything I could get my hands on because that was also where I connected my worthiness and my value. And my home life is differs from a lot of the experiences of your listeners and even yourself in that it wasn't one of those obvious situations of trauma and abuse. It was one of those things where it looked one way on the outside and then totally different on the inside. And I was happy to let people believe that illusion was there of I had everything and I was safe and secure and had a great home life. I was happy to let people believe that. And I started to take on an identity to reinforce that and make it look like that's what I was presenting to the world to keep that illusion intact for everyone else, even though it was it had started to crumble for myself. So I channeled it into overcompensating for what I knew was going on behind closed doors in the image that I was putting forth to the world, and I did that through extreme overachievement at everything.

Michael: It's really funny because I see it go both sides were on one hand, you have people who go that path, right? And you're like, I'm going to go and create this other thing. And you have people like me where I was like, I'm gonna go burn everything down. And it's interesting cause there's not really, I rarely see anything in the middle where people are like I'm going to do some things, I'm gonna do something wrong, and wrong being subjective, obviously in contextual, but I was like, I'm going to go fucking crazy, like I will go out and find the thing that I need. And a lot of that was like, there was no level of reinforcement of that safety in my home, do you feel like you had any level of safety? At home or was it, I have to go out here and create it entirely on my own because I know that there's people who are listening and probably really relate to what you're saying right now.

Phoebe: So to a degree there was safety with my mom. However, as I became more aware, I realized how she wasn't what I thought she was. She wasn't actually strong. She wasn't actually, in a good place, and one of my biggest fears as a kid, I remember is If her becoming upset because of my dad and me being so on edge about her being upset because that meant that I was losing her strength. And that was the only source of strength in my childhood growing up was my mom, and while she was a bit of a source of safety, I also did not want to or think that I could rely on it because she was subject to the emotions and the situation that was going on with my dad, which was completely out of my control. So I sought to do everything myself, extreme independence and take charge of honestly modulating my family's emotions and my own path out of there.

Michael: That's it saddens me when responsibilities that are not children's are bestowed upon them because parents are not whether responsible or capable or willing to do the thing or work on their own shit, which is the problem most of the time, it's ironic. You say that this just this morning I had posted something to the effect of like it is our responsible responsibility as an adult to heal generational trauma and not do what our parents did. And I think we have a moral obligation to that, but part of the problem with that is now if you're in this massive fight, flight, freeze, fawn state, you're in this hyper aroused state of looking around everything all the time. It's chaos trying to, then what happens is effectively become a control freak, add a dash of perfectionism, and then suddenly now you're destroying your whole life, not realizing that's what you're doing, right? And so when you're on this journey this must have served you well, middle school high school heading into college. What was happening in your life around these? Perfectionism and achievement behaviors like what did you feel like it was actually moving you towards something?

Phoebe: My whole intention was to get a scholarship into college because that was the only way that I was going to be able to get out, right? And be able to my parents couldn't afford or qualify for aid. It was that unique middle ground where you don't get the benefit, but you also don't have the money to do it. And so I, I knew that I had to get a scholarship. So I threw all of my energy into athletics and academics. And applying for school, I had only enough money to apply to one school because it's like 400 for the application fee, and I got in and I got a scholarship, almost a full ride. So that was what I was working towards at that point.

Michael: What was it that became the anchor for you?

Phoebe: It's just that traditional societal story of if you can get an education, then you will be successful. And I believed that wholeheartedly. I think I needed to believe that at the time. And at that point, the rose colored glasses of that illusion hadn't yet come off. So I was able to really use that as a, an anchor, as a guide throughout my childhood to get to that point. And then I got to that point and it all broke down again.

Michael: Yeah, and it does that if you're paying attention, and I think when we're young, actually I know this when we're young, we need something to hold onto, right? We're like, fuck, anything is better than what this is. Anything is better than where I'm at anything is, I will do whatever it takes. And on my side, I was like, I'm going to sell drugs. I'm going to steal cars, break into houses, like I'm going to do whatever it takes. I'm going to be in these streets because I knew for me, college was never going to be an option. It was literally statistically impossible, right? I had straight F's pretty much my entire high school career. I had a 1.1 GPA, like all the good grades were like gym class, right? And like English class. Cause I loved English. And so I remember just thinking okay, there's a solution here, something that I can galvanize myself around to move towards. And I did that for a long time, that became money. And I did really well, and then I realized, like I have mentioned many times on this show, like money is not the solution in the same way. What I'm hearing for you is maybe this college thing wasn't right.

Phoebe: Yeah. It got taken away from me through, without my choice, in that I ended up developing such a severe back injury that I, the scholarship that I'd gotten. I subsequently lost because I became injured and couldn't run cross country and track. So I lost my scholarship, which was my ticket to that school, and had to start going to physical therapy and surgeries and all kinds of things. So I ended up moving back home and losing that whole dream that I had worked so hard for, which was very traumatic. My world was really spinning at that point because that's all I knew. And that was my ticket, to success. Went through these surgeries and then that became my sole purpose was to get back to some semblance of a healthy normal life so that I can get back to achieving it.

Michael: One of the things I think is really crazy and I want you to go deep on this we have time and space. So let's go into it. One of the things I Actually really pisses me off is like people can get scholarships and have them taken away like to me, it's the A, I hate college. Everyone who listens to this show knows my opinion on college and the institution. If you want to be a doctor or a lawyer, go for it. 100%. I do not want anyone to operate on me who just watched a YouTube video. You know what I'm saying? But at the same time, it's like there, this lie about colleges perpetrated that keeps people stuck in this middle class. And we were talking about this last night, which I think is really apropos to this conversation is you were in this position where growing up you weren't poor enough to get the benefits of being in poverty and you didn't have enough money to not have to worry about it. And so all these people in the fucking middle class, they get stuck all the time because it's like, there's not a lot that you can do until you start to realize like maybe there's something else. Maybe it's not the, 40 hour work week, maybe it's not the white picket fence, but you hadn't gotten to that point yet because here you are in this position where you're chasing this dream. You're like, I'm going to get out. This is very similar to my situation at 18. I packed up my shit. I moved to New York City, 500 bucks in my pocket. I'm like, I'm getting out. That didn't last very long. . Imagine that. I imagine. You know what I'm, to me, I'm like, fucking go for it. Yeah. The worst thing that happens is I end up back where I was. And then I ended up back where I was. And you said that for you it was incredibly traumatic, what was it?

Phoebe: Yet another setback or the just, having to start over. So I moved back home. I went, started going to the local college, living with my parents while I was going through these surgeries. And, I was like, okay, cool. I'll do these surgeries. I'll get this fixed. I'll move on. I'm strong enough. I can still make this work, so after the second surgery, I developed a spinal staph infection. Jesus. The while I was healing I thought this would be like a six week situation, go back to what I was doing about four weeks into the healing journey, I got extremely sick, 105, 107 fever, like really bad went straight to the ER, immediate surgery. The doctor, I'll never forget him saying this to me when he came into my recovery to let me know it was going on. He said he had tears in his eyes and he said, I'm very sorry, but you have an infection and there's about a 50 percent chance that you'll be able to overcome this. And they sent it away to see if it was MRSA, one of those aggressive untreatable versions of staff. Luckily, it wasn't spent eight weeks with a PICC line in my heart, injecting myself four times a day. Very frail. This was one of the hardest I was, you could see me shrinking away just before your eyes. I had bed sores all over myself because I couldn't move around. So I got one of those like airing up beds to try to help with that. But I was 85 pounds at the time. And anyways, so even though the surgeries looked like the route out, then it was another setback of this infection, and I was like, you know what? Okay. We're doing this now. And I went through that, beat the infection, and I was like, okay, this is my next, I'm free now to keep going and get it back on the path of achieving.

Michael: What was going through your head when that doctor walked into that room?

Phoebe: It's interesting because I do remember consciously making the choice to take this on and to fight because this is going on about three years of already fighting this pain and this problem that was in my spine. This isn't just, Oh, let's decide to fight another week, it's I've already been fighting for years with this and so I do remember consciously deciding, okay, I am going to fight this because the alternative was. I was looking at my own death and I was facing I remember thinking, do I want to fight this? I remember thinking that and then, I told the story on the IG live where after my second surgery, they over medicated me and the morphine was stopping my heart. And I knew. That was happening not consciously. I think I was even sleeping at the time and I remember having a conversation in my head that something was wrong and I knew something was wrong, but it felt really good to just give into it and give up. I remember thinking that as morbid as that sounds that was the conversation going on in my head and it's like another version of myself popped up to say, Hey, No, this is wrong. You need to fight this. And it was like this war in my head deciding whether I was going to live or die, and they didn't have me hooked up to any monitors because it was a, just a should have been just fine recovering with a normal amount of morphine, whatever. So they didn't know that my heart was stopping, and when I decided to listen to the voice to live, then all I could get out was dying. And my mom was sitting right next to my bed, luckily for me. And she woke up and heard me and got the doctor. They restarted my heart and I was fine. But I do remember making the conscious decision to fight and to live through this process.

Michael: That's powerful. And I've wrapped on death's door multiple times, shouldn't be here, probably very, probably a couple of my own doings. I'll leave it at that and then a couple of experiences where I got desperately ill, like desperately sick. And remember, I got It's called C diff, which is a bacterial infection that kills about 400, 000 people a year, and I remember lying in the hospital bed and I was like, fuck this. I'm not done. I have not done the thing that I'm trying to do. And I remember I heard it was in this window and it's really amazing that I heard this and I don't remember who said this, but they had told themselves they are not allowed to die until they do the thing they're supposed to do. And I remember feeling very strongly called into that where it's okay, you have to make a decision and look really like realistic. Let's call it what it is. It's really out of our hands, but it doesn't probably hurt to have a mindset that says I can make it out of this. One of the things I think is really difficult about that though is when you are in that moment and you are Suffering and you are feeling pain like you've never felt before Where you're covered in bed sores and you hate the world and you feel like whether it's God you align with or whomever It is Or whatever it is you're like, why me, why am I going through this? And I remember I was on this podcast and this woman said in a past life, you called this into the world. It's that's fucking stupid, I do not believe in that. That's my opinion. But what I do believe in is okay, you are dealt these cards, and no matter what they are your cards. You cannot exchange them, you can't change them out, they are the ones you have to play. And whether it's this or any of the circumstances that we face in life, you have to play those cards and you can either go all in or you can fucking fold and I think that's the thing that I've always leveraged is I'm just going to go all in on everything. I'm going to figure this out, and so you're in this moment, you're, this is dire and you're like mid twenties at this point, a freaking baby, right? And you're like, I'm facing death already. I appreciate that. I've had to do that as well at such a young age cause it's given me freedom. Yeah. And one of the very first things I talk about on stage is I tell people almost immediately you're going to die because I think that we fail to really understand that until we like you are wrapping on death's door. Did you have a reconciliation with your own death? Like how did you what was it for you to be able to address your own mortality in that moment and be like, I'm not done.

Phoebe: Yeah. So it's interesting you speak about it from the perspective of thinking to yourself I am not done. I have more to do. I think what the only thing that was going through my mind was my competitive, overachieving nature was applied even to this situation.

Michael: Childhood trauma paying off for once.

Phoebe: Yes, exactly. It was like, I am not going to let this beat me as unprofound as that may be that was honestly my approach, cause I was questioning whether I could do more at that point and whether I wanted to come back to a life where now I'm so far behind, I'm probably going to deal with this for the rest of my life. All of those thoughts were going into my head as I was weighing this decision to even move forward because, oh, do I even want to move forward with this set of circumstances? And I think my overachiever nature kicked in and said, hell yeah, we're going to do this, we're going to fight. So not a very prof as profound as what you were experiencing and believing you were capable of more. But eventually that Did come to serve me later on.

Michael: Yeah. I mean it is profound because it's yours, right. And I think sometimes we have to I know, sometimes we have to leverage like whatever it is that will take us on the next level. What was the healing journey like in that? And this will be two part question. So what was it like for you in the process of healing? ‘Cause that can often be the most difficult part of all of this cause you're like, I can't do this shit I used to be able to do, and then what was your support system like?

Phoebe: Yeah. So when I did beat the infection, it was at that point when the surgeon told me there's nothing more they can do that I should go on disability for the rest of my life. I was 21 at that time, and that was their solution was go on disability, collect a check, there's nothing more we can do for you. And it's interesting because I that even wasn't It's like that didn't even phase me, it was strange. I think at that point, because I had realized how much I had overcome, I had decided, okay, this is just the next version of my blocks in life, and I just decided that wasn't going to be my fate. Even if I had to take 14 pills a day from then on, that's what I was going to do. And that's what I did do. I kept on going. I was taking so many medications to just keep myself going and keep myself pain free, and started looking into other options. I went, I explored stem cell therapy, I explored all kinds of crazy Eastern medicine stuff, and throughout that time, I had my mom and I had my boyfriend who I think was my fiance by that point. And now my husband to keep me going. And that was my support system through that.

Michael: What was it? Cause I think that sometimes people don't know how to help. Their person, their family, their friends who are suffering or hurting, like what was it that they did for you?

Phoebe: That's a great question. I think the biggest thing people can do in those moments is just be there and listen. Don't try to relate. Don't try to tell me it's going to be all, all okay. Just be there and listen and be supportive and empathetic. And that those were the biggest things that were most important to me. I didn't necessarily need their reassurance because I didn't believe it. I didn't know that it was going to be all okay, I wanted them to just be able to trust and be with my pain without trying to feel like they have to fix it. And my mom and my now husband are amazing for that.

Michael: What did that mean to you?

Phoebe: It meant that there wasn't pressure. It was just my journey alone. I wasn't feeling feeling like I had to fix this maybe for them would have been a really bad spot for me to be in, they were able to be with me even with My pain and my circumstances, and that was really important because if I felt like there was pressure for me to do it for them too, it would've been a much harder experience.

Michael: Yeah. And they can't, no. That's the part we feel to remember is like, we can't control anything or anyone but us. And I think when the hard part is like, as we're watching those around us suffer is you literally can't help you can be present, you can show up, you can like maybe bring us cookies sometimes, like whatever that thing is, but like that, that it's more of the, I felt as I went through this battle with this illness, at one point I had to go on a 21 day fast and I had to drink, it's called the elemental diet. If you've ever heard of this, it's effectively the same food that they give people in life support, but it's in powder form and you put it in a shake and for 21 days, that's all I could consume. And I remember just being so frustrated at points and friends would be like, Oh you'll get through this and you'll get over it, it'll be fine. And I remember one time just distinctly, I was sitting down with one of my boys and I was like, dude, shut the fuck up, I know, I was like, you have no idea what you're talking about, I know I'm going to get through it, I already decided, but you are not helping.

Phoebe: It's people feel this anxiety to do something, and the best thing that you can do is just accept that person where they're at with this burden that they're carrying and not feel like you have to do something about it.

Michael: Yeah. What was it like as you were going through this emotionally for you? What's going through your head? What's going through your mind? What's happening to your psyche, your confidence the person that you are, because the reason why I wanted to have this conversation with you is because there is an identity shift that happens when you go through that much suffering. When you go through that much pain, that much hurt, this is the part I don't think people talk about enough, what was happening in your life?

Phoebe: I think I reverted to. How I survived in childhood, where I put on this facade, this outward facing appearance of everything was okay, very few people in my life knew that this was even going on. You would notice maybe, all the pills or some of the elements that I had to support my back. My life was built around my back, but you didn't know that I was suffering. I was very successful at this time in my very first career and I was making really good money and no one would, no one really knew that I was suffering. So in order to cope with it, I went back to an old strategy of just putting on this facade of I'm okay, everything is fine, and that worked for a while.

Michael: Until it didn't.

Phoebe: Until I could no longer. So what ultimately happened and I haven't spoken about this yet, but when I started going through the healing process, so I did this Eastern medicine sort of therapy. What happened was my body detox very quickly, and I actually started getting all of these autoimmune diseases that popped up, it's hard to explain but as I was healing, I was getting worse, and so what happened was, I could no longer keep up with my work and I got fired from this career I had built. So similar to when I lost my scholarship and had to move away from college and failed at that and it got taken away from me, my very first career where I was successful, all of those, that achievement that was so important to me, completely lost that as well. And Yeah, I was three quarters of our household income at the time, and overnight it was just gone, and at the same time my body was going through yet another crisis of healing. I had rashes all over my body and my face, all of my joints swelled up, my face swelled up, I had ringing in my ears, I had extreme pain just all over my body, like a fibromyalgia type thing, and couldn't even really walk or do anything. And I didn't speak about that because the journey, this is why the journey of my health was like 10 years. Because the surgeries and the spinal infection, all of that was just the beginning. And then all of the healing as a result of all the damage to my body of going through all those surgeries, it just destroyed my immune system and it started attacking itself, got fired. We were in really bad financial situation in addition to the fact that I couldn't work now because I was covered in oozing rashes and swollen joints. So we ended up selling our house and moving into an apartment to, and then started looking into how I can recover from these autoimmune diseases that they told me were incurable and I would just be on prednisone the rest of my life.

Michael: Which is a hell of a steroid.

Phoebe: Yeah, it's not good, you'll basically die at 40 if you start taking that at 25.

Michael: Yeah, for sure. So what is the mental battle you're having during all this?

Phoebe: It goes back to that same thing. I felt like there was one roadblock after another and a, such a victim to my circumstances is how I felt. I wasn't yet fully broken down at this point, so I took it on. I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna heal these autoimmune diseases that are incurable. I don't know why I thought that was possible, but I just was, that's what I devoted my life to. So for about 18 months so, we took all of our money, we checked me into a holistic health clinic where I was getting vitamin C IVs every single day, I went on a very expensive vitamin protocol to just build back my immune system. And hope that I would reverse the situation. And I was taking the prednisone at the time to keep my symptoms in check. And after about 18 months, I was relatively symptom free. I had completely reversed all of the autoimmune diseases in my body. And I was on my way to having a normal health, having normal health again.

Michael: That's incredible. I think about how important and imperative it is to control our emotions and control our thoughts to, and look, I'm a realist. I'm not some optimist guy. I've never been. It's not my nature. I don't think the fucking glass is half full, I just think it's a glass, all right. And so what I do measure when I look at those things, though, is I always think to myself, if anyone has ever done the thing I'm trying to do, then I can do it too. Where was like, where was the evidence that you could make this happen?

Phoebe: That's a good question. I think I'm really good at finding a example in the world of something. And thinking, okay, if that exists, then it's possible and I'm really good at holding on to the tiniest little bit of hope, whereas most people will look at it and say 90 percent of people with this problem, this is how it goes. So that's probably me too, I think because of my history of achievement and being able to overcome quite a few odds, I think I just assumed I was going to be able to do it too. So similar to what you said in that if someone's done it somewhere, I can do it too. I think I had that mentality. I did have that mentality as well. And because I also love challenge and competition, it was almost like a, the competitive nature in me and the overachieving nature again, served me in this instance to think Okay, let's do this, we can do this, and that's not to say it was horrible. It was yeah, it was a horrible experience, just day to day existing and living was really horrible. I had open sores all over my hands, I had to wear gloves every day, just existing was miserable. So it's not like it was a happy, positive experience all the time, but I was a fighter.

Michael: That's sometimes the only thing you have, right? Being a fighter. That's sometimes all you got, you mentioned battling yourself as being a victim in that time, what did that look like? Cause I, and I'm asking that question cause I know what that's like. I know those moments, and I think that part of this journey is coming to the truth in that, you can play the victim, you're totally allowed to anyone who would hear this story. It'd be like, if I were you, I'd be on fucking welfare and food stamps and government food, and I would definitely be on disability, I'd take that check and I just would be like, this is my life, and that over and over and over again. My mother did that, my grandmother did that, people, my community did that. The goal was to get on disability, right? Which is like this crazy fucking thing that I had to understand as a kid, you would just see it again and again, and being the victim, like there is a benefit to it, but, and we'll get into this, it wouldn't be your life now, obviously, but at one point it was, and you're like playing the victim and you're in that what was happening in your life then?

Phoebe: I don't think it was at that point in my life where I saw myself as the victim. In fact I think the reason that disability too was not an option for me is the way that I was raised with that sort of middle class mindset of you don't ask for help, you don't take help you do everything on your own, that sort of independent nature. So I think, from that perspective, I was quite averse to living that type of life. So that probably did support me and not going that route, and actually at that point I wasn't playing the victim. In fact, I was almost disillusioned to where nothing was wrong. I'm going to do this, I can do this, it's still was just like, I don't know, it’s still that desire to put on the facade that everything is okay, despite my bloody face and my swollen features. Also, I'll show you photos after the show. It was not actually until, and this is interesting, until I got through it all and was healed actually healed and I knew that there wasn't going to be another setback, that Then all of the anger, resentment and grief of it all hit me at that time and everything that I'd been repressing suddenly came and hit me. And at that point it was poor me. I had to go through all of that. It's like I couldn't even celebrate my success coming out of solving these health problems because now all of a sudden All of that was hitting me at once. And that's when I became a victim of my circumstances. Ironically, when I, when it, when the problem was gone.

Michael: Yeah. What started happening?

Phoebe: I went through a total emotional crisis, like I had identified with this journey for so long it had been, I think maybe eight years or so. And without that in my life, I didn't know what I was fighting for, I didn't know what I was working towards, I didn't know who I was, I didn't have an it as an excuse to be in such a bad place anymore, I was here, I was completely financially broken. We were in so much debt over this. I had no income, and I had no excuse now at this point because I wasn't sick anymore and realizing that I had just come over this huge mountain just to be at the base of an even bigger mountain was so depressing. And at that point I just started feeling sorry for myself, self sabotaging, blaming everyone around me, including my husband, he took probably the brunt of it because I was mad and I was sad, about where I was at.

Michael: Yeah. If your identity is tied into being the warrior and you don't have a battle to fight, it's what do you do? And that's what happened to me. Like at 25 heading into 26, all this success, all this money, I'm out of where I grew up. I can do literally anything I want at any time, but I'm yet destroying my life and everything. The anger was so palpable. Like I, it's hard for me to. Even fill it today because I'm so far removed from it. And so much of the journey of this healing, but there was nothing I wanted more in the world than to destroy it all, just so mad, cause it was like, yeah, here I am, like I have all these successes, like I've been able to do all these things, I got out, I made all this money. I had all these hookups, all these girls and like everything on paper looks fucking awesome except my life is a complete disaster, and so much of it was anger. So much of it was a self sabotage. And then I realized wait a second there you said something I think that's really poignant, like now you're standing in front of the Southern mountain. I didn't know at the time what the mountain was for me. It took me a little bit of doing the work until I realized actually the mountain is me. And I was like, okay, wait a second. Now I have wrapped my head around this a little bit deeper, and so you make it over one, you're at base camp of the other one, what were you looking at? What was that other mountain?

Phoebe: It was being able to create an actual life where we didn't, life where we didn't have debt, where we were making money. That mountain was, I don't know how I'm ever going to deal with what I'm left with now that I'm here. How am I going to get out of debt? How am I ever going to make money again? How am I going to, own a home again and have a normal life? And what am I going to do now? I have no, I was fired from the career I was in, I have no skills. It just, there was just nothing, the mountain was that there was nothing, now I had nothing.

Michael: So where did you begin? ‘Cause I think a lot of people feel like they have nothing.

Phoebe: Yeah. I love that you said that you realized that the mountain was you. I didn't quite realize that yet at that time, but that's where I was headed. So what I did initially was what a lot of people do, which was distract myself from this, mountain and not go up it, just start going around it. So what we did at the time was move into an RV and travel around the US and Mexico. So we just decided, you know what, screw it, we don't need money, we don't need corporate, the corporate life, we're gonna be these wild and free hippies and we're just gonna make it work, like your move to New York with 500 and figure it out story. That was our version of this. And I really believed that for a while and it was fun and everything, but then did that for two and a half years, and start. It starts to creep up on you, you start to feel that discontent again, the reality of what you actually want starts to nag at you in the back of your mind and you start to reject where you're at because it's not what you actually want. And I really was good at diluting myself about what I wanted in life

Michael: as someone who's an overachiever, self proclaimed. Why were you diluting yourself?

Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah, that might have been one of the only times that I allowed myself to give up on that story of the achieving. And I think at that point I was so grateful to be alive and healthy that all I wanted to do was for once actually just enjoy my life. And I told myself that I could do that without money, I could do that without a purpose, and that was my exploring that concept and realizing that, yes, that was an important, that's an important element for me to learn. And I'm really glad that I. Took that journey because I it did teach me that achieving and money isn't everything but then it's like I had to come back to a middle ground where achieving and money did have a place in my life But from a healthy perspective and then married the two together.

Michael: Yeah, funny because the first thing my brain went to is like The only thing I'd probably be worried about every single day of that trip was, like, how many bill collectors were calling me. Which is a part of it, too, you can't escape it. It's there. And one of my favorite games used to be, hide the bill underneath the other bill. Ha! Yeah, and it's that old adage, like, wherever you are there, or wherever you go, there you are and I think one of the escape ISM plays a beautiful role in our life because it helps us not have to suffer for a moment. But the hard part about that not suffering for a moment is the not suffering today leads to a lot more suffering tomorrow. And there is this in we seek to live in a reality that is not true so that we don't have to face the reality that we're in. I realize in what you just said, part of this for you is fuck, I haven't lived, you've probably never really had the opportunity, to go into self discovery to become you to have fun, with your husband to go down this path of this other thing, but then there's still probably a sprinkle of I gotta run from all this. What were you reconciling those two concepts in any capacity on this journey, or was that a hindsight thing?

Phoebe: At this point I'm going to back up a little bit. Something that shaped my relationship to debt and money was my dad was a criminal and he didn't pay taxes most of his life, and what he, so one of the things he started doing was putting income in my name. When I came of age 16 and could work, he started putting some of his income in my name and then not paying taxes on that money either so that he could hide even more income. And when I turn when 15 days after my husband and I got married, I got a letter in the mail and it was a sort of a warrant out for my arrest, because of tax evasion and I had no idea what this was in it, it was threatening and it said something about jail and I owe all this money, I had no idea what that meant. So come to find out my dad's half a million dollars in debt to the IRS over a period of, I don't know, 10 or 12 years and a portion of that's in my name. So I worked with my mom to hire a lawyer to fix that, but we were pay, we were so much in debt paying this lawyer thousands and thousands of dollars. So I, from day one of starting my life was in $80,000 of medical debt and $500,000 of tax money that like wasn't even mine between myself and my mom. So I did not ever think it was possible to not have debt. Like I just was like, that's life. And so at this point when we were in the RV and I knew I had this debt, it was like, okay, nothing I can do about it, might as well just enjoy my life. So I didn't think there was a way out with that and I would just be paying it the rest of my life.

Michael: Yeah. How could you not think that it's so fucked up my, my, my mother took out, this is the craziest shit. My mother took out an old Navy store card in my name when I was 16. And when I went to go get my very first car loan, I was like something like 4,000 in debt. And I was like, what in the fuck is going on here? She did it to my sister. She did to my younger brothers and I started off, and I think a lot of people do when they have parents who are criminals, I started off in debt and I just, and I remember being a child and time again, the phone was ringing the collectors. They turned off our water, our heat, electricity, the bills would be piling up. It was always this thing about money, and it's that's all I knew. That's how I ended up making a million bucks by the time I'm 25 heading into 26 and I'm 50 grand in debt, what logical sense does that possibly make? Because now that becomes learn behavior, right? Now there's an element to it obviously that's outside of your control, but the programming is still there.

Phoebe: And that's, what's crazy about things like that is they stack on top of each other in that. Because I was in debt, then I didn't have credit, so I couldn't get things, I didn't have access to things. So then you think I'm never going to have access to those things, I might as well just not even try, and it's just crazy how it's set up and to think that like I wasn't even irresponsible, I wasn't even my you know, fault, if you will from the perspective of I wasn't doing the wrong thing. It just happened to me, and then those things just constantly compound to beat you down, and then you just think that's life. So that's why I was able to just go and have fun and not think about the money and just think this is how I have to live.

Michael: One of the things I didn't get to have the conversation with my mother. I had told her when I was 18, I was like, I'll never talk to you again. There were a lot of reasons, I've shared it on the show many times, but by the time that she died, now I'm in this position of I'm going to go and Go buy this thing and do this thing and all the I can't even get fucking credit card I'm like making 200 grand a year like it doesn't make sense to my brain I never get to have the conversation with her like what the fuck were you thinking? Like how did you get into what was the conversation between you and your father and your family about all of this chaos?

Phoebe: I hadn't been talking to my dad since I was pretty much ninth grade. He lived in our home, but he woke up every day and went down to his office in his bathrobe and played video games all day with the door closed. That was my life with my dad, pretty much all of until he moved out. I think he moved out. I'm not sure, maybe 18ish, I'm not sure. He just left one day. And I didn't wasn't really aware fully of what was going on. My mom would tell me, yeah, he just decided to I don't know where he is. I don't know what he's doing. We'll come to find out. He was dealing with cancer and was dying and he did not. He pretty much just made everything difficult in dealing with my mom, dealing with me. So we did not have a relationship, we didn't have any sort of contact, and then he died one day and my brother called me and told me that he had passed away and that was it. So there was not really any closure there or any reconciliation or confrontation at all.

Michael: That's hard. I mean that I hear stories like that and I can't help but think and I know this is, there's no solace in what I'm going to say, but I cannot help but think good Lord, what must his childhood have been like?

Phoebe: Oh, my parents childhood were both horrible, absolutely horrendous, hard to believe anyone can survive type of horrible. It just, yeah, as an adult, what brings me comfort is knowing that my dad, while he's No, he's still responsible for how he handled that. I now have a better understanding of why he was the way he was and that there probably was some mental illness there that was undiagnosed and at the time, more of a stigma. And that does bring me comfort knowing that. I think that he really wasn't capable.

Michael: Yeah. For me, a lot of it was like looking at my mother's experience. I remember I said that because I had a therapist say that to me and they're like, just imagine what your mom's childhood was like, not in this justification way, but just take a moment and just put that in your brain for a second. And I was like, fuck, that became a game changer, and it became a game changer because like my grandmother was a fucking psycho. Like legit. Her husband beat the shit out of her. They got divorced in like the sixties, early seventies, something like that, and so I'm like, okay, this is generational. How did their parents treat them? And so on and so forth. You can go down this path and it's I get it, but it's still this sucks. Yes. I don't think you get removed from that.

Phoebe: If it hadn't been for my mom, it would have been a probably very different story for me. But my mom even had a conversation with me at some point where she said to me. My childhood is horrible, my she was raised by her grandma, my grandma was horrible to me, and I'm intentionally Making that different for you doing the best that I can and I saw her work for jobs when my dad was playing video games I saw her show up at every freaking track practice and dance recital and everything that I did She was always my biggest cheerleader And that, that I think was the thread that really got me through and I know that and my mom's amazing, we have an amazing relationship today. Absolutely my rock and couldn't, wouldn't be here without her.

Michael: Yeah. It sounds like she's fucking G.

Phoebe: Yeah, man. Oh, I just, I can't imagine being in her position and her just telling me, I never want you to be dependent on a man because she felt that way, and she felt like she couldn't escape, she felt like she was trapped. And she's I never want you to feel trapped by your circumstances.

Michael: What do you think is the greatest lesson your mom has taught you?

Phoebe: Boy, she taught me that there's always a solution. That woman is the most creative fighter fighting person that I've ever met. And she's faced some extremely difficult circumstances and she always finds a way to come out, she never ever. Gives up and I'm like a carbon copy of that.

Michael: Yeah, that I love that, and not giving up is literally the whole game. Like I try to teach people this, I'm like, as long as you don't quit, you can't lose. It's literally impossible, that is the whole game, as long as you don't give up on yourself, your dreams, your career, your health, your family, your debt, as long as you don't give up, like it's incredible what can happen, I'm not, it's definitely not going to happen overnight, it took me a long time to get out of 50 grand of debt, that's my doing, plus medical debt, again, out of my control, that was another at the time gosh, I think the most that I got up to was like 35,000, something in that window. And I had insurance too. So it's this is just America. But here's what's interesting, even though sucks, like you can still move through it, and so I want to come back to the loop. We open here, you are, you're standing in front of this next mountain. What is the mountain and what is the journey?

Phoebe: So did the RV thing for about two and a half years came to the realization that I did want more. And that was the first, that's the first step and that's one of the biggest things I see with people is their willingness to claim what they want and to actually create that vision for themselves instead of deluding themselves and telling them that this life where they're at is where they want to be because that wasn't true for me, I was lying to myself, I decided that I did want more and I took action, it was weird.

Michael: Just one day decided to slow you down real quick because that moment of decision is the thing that changes people's lives. What started lay that moment out? What is happening? Where are you? What's in your head? Like what is, cause that's the moment where everything becomes different.

Phoebe: Yeah. So we, so during this time when we were in the RV, I didn't know what to do for work, like I said, I had one skill set, one career, and that was gone, that was not an option. So I had been cobbling together random things. I was teaching Chinese kids English online, I worked in an Amazon warehouse for three weeks while we needed some extra money, I had this weird online RV marketing job that I did for a while, and I just remember thinking, where is this going? This doesn't go anywhere. I'm not developing anything that's and I didn't know how to do that outside of the corporate concept, right? That's what the only concept that I had in my mind, and I somehow came across the world of online entrepreneurship, that this the digital world where people and this was relatively new back then that was just then taking off. And I was like, Wow, if I could get an online job, that would be amazing. And figure that out, so started doing research there, okay. Decided if I'm going to do this, I need to learn how to do this. So I need to get a job by one of these people. So I sent an email to five different entrepreneurs at the time that looked like they were doing well and basically just said, I don't really have much to offer, but I'm, I would work hard and I would start from the ground up. If you take a chance on me, two of them gave me an interview. One of them hired me 15 an hour. Oh man, it was like starting completely over, but I was so grateful because I knew that if I was given the opportunity, I would be able to do something with it. And I did, and that was the start of the climb up the mountain.

Michael: Was that because you were looking at what? What prompted that? That moment of I'm going to do this. I'm going to reach out. Is it because you saw something that you wanted or was it like, I guess I'm trying to understand a little bit deeper. What was the mechanism for the decision?

Phoebe: I just got so tired of not having any money. We never, we were, Aaron would come to me and say we can't spend anything until the 15th. And I would have to go through our cupboards and be like, okay, this is what we can eat this week to not have to spend any more money for another, 15 days. You guys were all the way broke. All the way broke, plus debt. There was just no, this wasn't sustainable.

Michael: Why not? I'm going to assume this is probably going back to what we talked about, but why not go on food stamps? Why not? Government housing, why not take that step?

Phoebe: So there was one time in my life that when I was fired that I looked into unemployment and I got so confused Immediately that I didn't know what to do and that was literally not in my worldview like growing up middle class Enough that you just don't see that. And the other thing is that I had my I had a half sister that was an utter delinquent. I think she had her first kid at 14 and had seven kids after that and got them taken away, she was in and out of jail. So that was what I associated with food stamps, which is so bizarre. Obviously, I was in a position where I, it wasn't because of, being doing bad things that I was in a situation I was in. It was a valid place to take part in those things that are available, but it was just so not in my worldview.

Michael: Yeah, I actually resonate with that. So at my fucking brokest, one of my friends calls me and he's dude, why don't you just go get government assistance? And for whatever reason I call it fucking ego. I don't know what to call it, but I just remember being like, I watched my, I would have to stand in that fucking line with my mom. I would have to stand in that line with her as a child, and I was like, I never want this, and then I remember one time there used to be this place called Cubs foods, this is a Midwest place, I don't even know if they're still around the next eighth way or whatever, and we're in line and. We have maybe seven things. It's like fucking bread and bologna and who knows, whatever, right? And she does not have, it was paper. So it was literally like food stamps, it was like literally paper stamps you would give to the cashier. We didn't have enough to buy what was on the conveyor belt at the grocery store. I'm like 11, and I remember just so vividly and so I relate to what you're saying and I don't want people to take this the wrong way because there's something that I resonate with about this feeling of I will never do that, right? And maybe it's fucking stupid.

Phoebe: It is right, it's a shame in a stigma that's attached like mental health issues, right? There was a shame and a stigma attached that was completely misdirected in the wrong way.

Michael: Yeah, cause to me, I look at it now and I think I have a very different perspective of it because I suffered hard going through that phase of my life. And in fact, being so poor, I had to borrow money from my girlfriend who lived with me to pay the rent, right? Like as poor can be right in that place. And so I love what you said, you were like, I'm going to make money. I'm tired of being broke. I'm tired of being in debt, this is where it actually gets hard. In my opinion, as someone who has put myself in a position to create some semblance of success because most people will not allow their ego to give them the space to take the 15 an hour job.

Phoebe: Yeah, believe me, my ego was there. I had previously been very successful in the one career that I had created before everything crashed. So I knew that I was quote unquote better than that and not by better than that meaning I meant that I'm more skilled than that level, and I knew that if I can just get my foot in the door, I'll be able to work my way up, and while it was a painful shot to my ego, it was a means to an end. And I'm more concerned with that end than my current position, and I knew it wasn't forever.

Michael: Yeah. I asked myself the question literally every day of my life. What am I willing to do to have the life that I want to have, right? That's become the cornerstone of everything that's led down this path to creating think unbroken, speaking on stages, writing the books, all the things. And when I was like 29, I had closed a business that was failing. I'm getting ready to move out of Indiana to Portland. I'm dead broke, but I'm like, I have to leave, like I cannot do this. Everything is a fucking disaster. I need to do something different, but I'm so broke at the time, the only thing that I can do as I'm like trying to figure out what to do with this business that's filling this other business that's growing. Balancing now having a partner that's left me cause I was a maniac and I was like you have to go work in a fucking call center you have to go do this because it is a job that will hire you tomorrow and you are out of options, and I think that if people are willing to look at life through that window, it's yo, is this what you want? Is this who you want to be? And so I think you, I know you have to put the ego aside for a moment. And sit in the humility of something that sucks, I think I made 13 bucks an hour at that job.

Phoebe: And it's looking at too. It doesn't, I think what happens with people is they make it mean something about them that I must be a loser because I have only making this much money. I didn't make it mean that about me. I made it. I made it mean I am so grateful that I have the skills to sell myself to someone that they're willing to take a chance on me when I have nothing to show for it. That's the way I looked at it is man, thank goodness I got that one skill.

Michael: Yeah. And you have to be willing to and a lot of that. And I think people don't realize that as it's asking for help.

Phoebe: Yeah that's true. In a way, that is what it is without, directly asking for help, that is what's happening , and so many people have such a complex with being able to ask for help, they'd rather stay in their suffering, it's comfy.

Michael: There's nothing better on planet Earth than being under the warm blanket, when you have to get up and walk outside and there's 12 feet of fucking snow and your dream is on the other side of the river that you have to swim through that happens to also be on fire. And then once you get to the other side it turns out it's actually quicksand and there's a monster who's gonna eat you and then there's all these other things and it's like, how bad do you want it? How bad do you really want it? And one of the hardest truths, especially with what I do and what I've done over the years and coaching people, even this podcast, I'm like, I know this podcast will change people's lives if they fucking pay attention, 20 percent of people. Whether they do anything with this podcast or not, their life will never be different because of fear because the willingness to stay in the identity of the person that they've been told they should be. And so here you are now, you're in this position where you've been through the debt, you've been through the medical, you've dealt with the father and luckily you have the awesome support system. You have some things working the right way. It's still on you, right? That's the thing that I just want to hone in on here because now. You're in this position of okay, 15 an hour. There ain't no fucking way you're getting out of debt with 15 an hour, Dave Ramsey or not, I don't care what he says. You're not saving yourself out of 50, 80,000 plus dollars, and I don't know if you want to share what happened with the other side of it with the IRS stuff, but realistically you cannot save your way out of debt. Nope. You have to make more money. So how did you do that?

Phoebe: Yes. I basically worked my way up in this job to working almost every position in business. I worked in sales and HR and operations and work just kept working my way up to where I developed enough knowledge to then get my own clients. I ran their businesses. I did launches for them. I get my Structured their entire restructured their businesses, helped them scale, all of those different things, developed a skill set, and that was my sole focus going into this is I don't even care what it is, whatever I'm exposed to, I'm gonna learn it so freaking well that I'm then going to go and do something with it and gonna make more money because I did go through the whole phase of where if you just cut your spending, you can, save enough to get your way out of it. And it came to the realization as I was going to four different grocery stores to shop their sales that I just needed to freaking make more money. This is not a solution. And that was, became my sole focus is the more skilled I am, the more money I can make, and that was the trajectory I followed.

Michael: Okay, now comes the mindfuck I'm going to guess. I'm going to use, I'm going to plant this seed, you tell me if I'm right. Making money makes you a bad person.

Phoebe: No, so I didn't have that, like as far as I had that, because all I ever heard was rich people suck.

Michael: Yes, okay. So maybe I asked you the wrong question. Did you have to go through that because I know there's people listening who's like people have money or bad people.

Phoebe: Oh, yeah. No, I have clients that say that all the time. So I didn't have that complex, I had a very good, healthy picture of wealthy people doing amazing things in the world, that's what I associated it with, like the Elon Musks and stuff of the world. I really looked up to them, I wanted to be them since the day I was born. So what ended up happening to me through that experience that came the next mind fuck, as you say, is when I was changing so many things about my circumstances working my way up, developing these skills starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, potentially, but then what I realized was that my circumstances were not the problem. I was the problem. And I distinctly remember having that realization, then coming to the conclusion that then if I am the cause of these problems, I'm also the source of the solution. And that way of framing it, I'm Helped me to look more positively at it and start to become more empowered about it. But I had this realization that I was the problem, not my circumstances.

Michael: If you were, what was the problem then?

Phoebe: So the thing about me that was in the way, there were a lot of things. Let me see if I can sort, sort through this. So while I was believing that I was deserving of making lots of money, and I really did believe that, whereas a lot of people have struggle with belief that they're worthy or whatever. I did not have that trouble, I probably had too much of a belief that I deserved it. What I realized was, no one freaking cares about that, no one cares whether you deserve it or not, no one thinks you deserve it. And I thought that if I show up, it will happen, and what I didn't have a sort of relationship with was extreme hard work and failure. And because almost everything I had done as a kid, I naturally excelled at luckily, I was relatively smart and athletically inclined. And it came relatively easy, so I didn't develop that muscle of having to work so freaking hard at something other than the things that were, I didn't have a choice, but I didn't look at that as like my own do. I just thought I survived it. I didn't do anything, I just survived it, that's how I looked at it. So I realized in this journey of learning these skills and starting to get clients and build a business that I didn't actually have a very strong constitution for hardship and failure, and I constantly sabotaged and broke down. And I also, This might be starting another subject, but I had a relationship or a relationship to success that meant if I succeed and get success, I'm going to lose it because I'd lost it. I don't even know how many times at this point, like three or four times. And so I was subconsciously sabotaging my success because I didn't want to lose it again.

Michael: Which is reasonable, right? More so it's a survival mechanism, right? Because what is the brain's primary function? Yeah, survival. Exactly. That's it. And so when you are constantly in this place of every time I get something it's taken away there's pain in that and the brain goes, I don't want this anymore. And so even though consciously you're like, I want what's over here. I want to go build this life, create this. Your brain's no, really, you actually don't, ‘cause remember how bad that hurt last time? And this is where people get trapped. So how did you pull yourself through that? What were the things about your belief, your identity, the person that you were, what were the shifts? How did, who did you have to become?

Phoebe: It was a while before I realized that's what was happening. And actually it wasn't so I was struggling to. Even though, so I'd gotten out of kind of that initial 15 an hour situation, and I was more oh, I was making like 4,000 a month or so, still not a lot for where I'm at compared to where I'm at now, but I was way more comfortable. I was so grateful to be there, and, I was struggling to be like, ‘cause I was seeing all these online entrepreneurs. I was in the network of all these entrepreneurs making millions of dollars. And I was like, I can do that, I want to be there, and I was so spent years struggling to figure that out. And I stumbled upon the world of coaching and I thought, you know what, I'm going to stop struggling and I'm going to hire a coach and we took every dime that we had from the sale of our RV to hire my first coach. It was only three months and it was 10,000 investment to me at the time, that was astronomical. And were you still in debt at the time?

Michael: Oh yeah. Okay. I just want to call that to attention. I think that really matters.

Phoebe: Yeah, yeah. I was still of the mindset that that debt's never going away anyway, might as well just keep spending, and I also did, but that was when I had come to the conclusion that saving money is not the answer. I need to spend money to make money so that I can then if that's ever going to happen, that's how it's going to happen. So invested in a coach, that's when I had the realization that I was subconsciously avoiding success because I was afraid it would be taken away. So did they point that out to you? Ooh, I think actually remember this moment, I can't. Oh, I was scrolling through Facebook one day and I saw one of my friends from former friends from back home had a stroke and very young had a stroke and was in the hospital and was struggling for his life and I'm getting goosebumps as I'm talking about this just seeing that story and that image gave, it's like I had a panic attack. It's like I had this flashback of my experience, and I remember that was one of the first times that I had, I guess what you could liken to PTSD, I don't know the medical, definition of that, I was up for three days straight, I couldn't sleep. My nervous system was just completely haywire, and that's when I realized Oh, crap. There's probably some stuff here that I need to work through and it's that was the realization that no matter how strong I am, I'm not going to be able to outstrength my triggers and my sort of emotional damage that I had from what I experienced. And so then I started asking myself what's there. And that's when I started getting answers from my subconscious that you're afraid of success, you're afraid everything's gonna be taken away from you. And I guess the willingness to ask those questions and get those answers, because a lot of people don't even want to face, that reality because it's really depressing.

Michael: Yeah, it is and but that's the only way there is no other way and it is like we have a commonality and our favorite film of all time being the matrix which I think is a phenomenal and enthralling in a way because I always tell people like, watch that movie. There's a scene you and I both agree with probably one of the greatest scenes in the history of cinema. Neo is in the car with Trinity and they now are in this moment where he has to make a decision whether or not he's going to walk down the rainy dark tunnel. He has been down a million times before or if he's going to go in the other direction. And that's the moments of life that forever change you, and it sucks. Honestly, it sucks, ‘cause you don't know what's on the other side and it's scary because you don't know, but you did, you did. I think the smartest thing a person can do when you are at rock bottom, yet again, you ask for help. The hard part about asking for help when it's you really want to level up, not when you just want to change, but when you really want to level up because there's someone at the level that you want to get to is you have to pay, and if the currency was like gummy bears, fine, that we would, here's my gummy bears, but it's not, it's money. And sometimes it's money when you're in debt. And my first investment, I've shared this all the time, my first investment in myself was 50 into a Brendon Burchard course online when I was 50,000 in debt. And it was not that thing that changed it because it's never that thing, but it's the thing that makes you go, okay, maybe there's something more. And so I think that's super admirable and people are terrified, I hear all the time people, I don't have money. I'm like, good. Yeah, good, ‘cause that means you have nothing to lose. Now is the time, put it on the line. Sell your TV, sell your Xbox, sell your RV, ssell all your clothes, do whatever it fucking takes. Do whatever it takes, because if you don't, you will still be where you are tomorrow today, tomorrow, right? Whatever, and so that my thought around it always is you are always in a position to be the hero of your own story. Nobody's coming, nobody's going to rescue you, no one cares. The people who you're like, these are my best friends, they probably stopped showing up while you're in the hospital, the people are like, these are my people that I'm closest to, when you have to budget out food and you can't spend money until the 15th, they don't know or they don't care or both, when you're in this moment of I've got to put it all on the line. I'm down to my, I have no money left. We're in our, we got to put this 10 grand on a credit card. Nobody came and knocked on your door and asked you if you wanted to do it. You're in a position where you have to make a decision, you have to show up for yourself. You have to be the hero of your own story, and so I think your journey is beautiful and admirable, and when I look at your life and what you do now, it's like you are one of the definitions of what I want people to take away from this show because life is fucking hard, incredibly. But on the other side of all of that is everything you want. Before I ask you my last question, tell everyone where they can find out more about you, your coaching and learn more about what you do.

Phoebe: Yeah. So I actually, I have a special sort of offer for your listeners. I have opened up 10 slots for people that want to connect with me. I'm limiting it to 10 just for the sake of time, but if you want to connect with me, you want to have a, just a 100 percent complimentary coaching call with me. Pick my brain about certain things, I'm opening that up here, and the website to do that is uncageme.com. That's my company. uncageme.com/unbroken.

Michael: Sweet. That's incredible. Thank you for that, and I hope that people will reach out and do that. You have a wealth of knowledge and when I think about people on a parallel journey as me, you're one of those people that pop up and so it's if you get anything out of me, imagine what you're going to get out of Phoebe. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Phoebe: Being unbroken goes back to the theme of this entire conversation, which is never stopping because you are never broken, you are never broke too broken to continue moving, and that's the theme of my life.

Michael: Brilliantly said, my friend, thank you so much for being here on broken nation. Thank you for listening. Please like subscribe, comment, share, tell a friend if you got any value out of this, make sure you share it with the people in your life because every single time that you do, you move us one step closer to our mission of ending generational trauma, helping people transform their trauma into triumph, breakdowns, the breakthroughs and becoming the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time,

My Friends, Be Unbroken.

I'll See Ya.