How to Live with Survivors Guilt | with Cole Hatter

Michael: Hey, what's up Unbroken Nation? Hope you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you. Another episode with my man, Cole Hatter. What's up brother? How are you?

Cole: Chilling man. Hanging with you in Vegas. Excited to be here.

Michael: Yeah, thanks man. Thanks for having me. We just gotta do something really fun together speaking to one of your masterminds and hopefully really changing some lives that was absolutely incredible.

Cole: Thank you for coming and serving our community, bro.

Michael: Yeah, it's an honor. Your story, while I don't know all of it, is harrowing, right? And one of the questions I always ask people on this podcast to jump off is, what is something about you, about your past that I need to know to understand who you are today?

Cole: Something about my past. I have gone through; I've been blessed more than most and lost more than most and I think that, we'll get into a lot of that story there in a second, but I should be dead. And one thing that I like think that would be important for you to know about me is that I truly know what it means, like to be given a second and then a third chance at life and I'm just making the most of it. And so I think that there's a really interesting perspective that you get when you're almost dead and should have been dead twice that makes you really appreciate everything a lot, a lot more than you would've.

Michael: Dude, I totally relate to that. I've always had this weird thought in my head where I'm like, more people should almost die.

Cole: Yeah. I mean, it's like I wouldn't recommend it, but at the same time, if you can choose to not be a victim and choose to use your experience to motivate you for good, there's very few things that are more motivating than almost dying, that's for sure.

Michael: Yeah. That's how when you're staring at the abyss, it's like, make a decision. You know, I think unfortunately one of the harder parts is especially, you know, with Think Unbroken in this show and what we do, people feel, dude, they're just so stuck all the time. And they feel like, man, I can't get out and then they hear conversations like ours and they go, well, you guys are the lucky ones. And I'm like, maybe. But maybe not. What led you to this discovery of self?

Cole: So just two freak accidents that I went through my when I was 21 and we can get into those details if you want. Well, so the first accident happened at 21 years old. I was in a SUV with my two best friends. Steve was driving, we were in his car, it was a Toyota four runner. Matt, our other best friend, the three of us were inseparable, we were boys, three amigos, right? And so, Matt was in the passenger seat, I was in the backseat. And we were actually driving to Vegas, well I live in Orange County, California, so we were making that drive out here to Vegas I'm sure you've gone that direction out to California before. And we were out in the middle of the desert and the police report says that we were in the blind spot of a car that was in the slow lane that didn't see us approaching to pass and they turned left to get into our lane and made contact their back, left with our front right, which caused us to flip end over end. We were going about 80 speed limits, 75 out there so, we were going about 80 they estimated. I don't remember any of the accident. I don't remember three weeks before or about a couple of months afterwards. It's all gone. But so we get into this rollover accident, I got ejected out of the car, Steve, the driver got ejected outta the car. Matt, the other passenger stayed in the car for all of that accident and ended up getting rushed to a hospital in Barstow, which for the listeners that don't know the geography of the Southern California desert, it's in the middle of nowhere.

But he only got some bumps and bruises needed some stitches, so they rushed him back to a hospital 30 minutes away in an ambulance. I was too critically injured and so was Steve. So, they actually completely shut the freeway down in both directions, landed a helicopter right next to our car, put us in the helicopter, and flew us back to Southern California to Arrowhead Regional Trauma Center where they started doing surgeries on us and working on it.

I had a traumatic brain injury. I was bleeding outta my eyes, my ears, my nose, I was in bad shape. And obviously I survived that accident, but Steve didn't, and that was the first big loss of my life. At that age, I still had all four grandparents, right? Like, I hadn't really experienced death or loss, and this was extra tragic because I was in the accident with Steve. So not only did I have the understandable grief of losing your best friend, Steve and I grew up together, we'd been boys forever, right? We met Matt later on, who we adopted into our little friendship circle. But Steve and I grew up since we were little kids, and so losing someone who was like a brother to me came with all the obvious grief that you would expect but what really killed me was the soul crushing guilt of having survived the accident when he didn't. We were in the same car together. We both got ejected together. We were both flopping around the pavement at 80 miles an hour together. We both flew in the helicopter together, and we were both in the operating room right next to each other. He had his team, I had mine working on us, and they could save me, and they couldn't save Steve and I couldn't process that, and it was really, really hard for me.

So I went into a deep depression understandably. And Matt, the other survivor, really understood where I was coming from because he too knew what it felt like to survive that accident and to lose Steve, right. So, Matt and I, who were already best of buds, became really inseparable, I had to move back into my parents' house immediately following that accident because I was so hurt. I couldn't walk. I was in a wheelchair. I had to be like, carried to the toilet, the whole deal.

And so, I had to move back in with mom and dad. I'm now 21 years old. I think I said that. And Matt would come and visit me every single day at my parents' house. I wasn't in any condition to drive, but I wasn't allowed to drive either because of my brain injury. And so, I was just stuck at my parents' house sitting in my depression alone. But Matt would come every day and be there with me. Well, two months later, I got out of my wheelchair and I graduated onto crutches, I could get around on crutches and to celebrate that, Matt wanted to go ride dirt bikes. And at first, I was like, are you crazy bro? How are we gonna go ride dirt bikes? I literally just got out of my wheelchair and he's like, that's the point. You sit on a dirt bike, like you're gonna be fine. Let's do this.

So our parents agreed. He packed up his truck, he threw our motorcycles in there, and we went out to the desert. And we were just putting around real slow. I mean, again, I was in no condition to be having a ton of fun out there, what Matt was trying to do was just get me outta my depression. Get me back into some of my old routines. 'cause I went from being a very active 21 year old working with a fire department, like riding dirt bikes, surfing to just sitting in a wheelchair, confined to my parents' house, thinking about my best friend who I had just lost.

So Matt was just trying to get me back into my old routine. Well, as we were riding Matt was ahead of me and I was behind him. He climbed this little hill and when he got to the top of the hill, he disappeared 'cause when you're at the bottom of the hill looking up, you can't see what's on the top. So I climbed the hill behind him just to follow him as he was going along. And when I got to the top of the hill, there wasn't a top at all it was just a huge hole. It was a 10 foot by 20-foot-wide hole and I fell into it. And as I was falling into it, I was able to reach out and grab a bush about the size of a basketball, no bigger than that trash can right there. And hang looking down into complete blackness by one arm. And so, I was able to grab the bush, eventually pull myself up to my armpits and work myself out of the hole and then I started looking for Matt. And so again, I can hardly walk still. I'm on crutches and so without my crutches and with my motorcycle at the bottom of that hole now, you know, I wasn't very mobile and so I'm yelling down for Matt 'cause my bike fell in, I didn't know if it fell on top of him. I didn't know if he was hurt. I didn't know what was happening. I'm yelling. I'm yelling, I'm yelling. He's not answering. So call 911, get the fire department out there, they set up all the search and rescue, and it takes forever, they send someone down, they pull 'em up, they send someone down, they pull someone up, and they wouldn't give us any info.

Well, finally, after six hours of us standing by the hole, praying, waiting by the way, I called my parents. I called my youth pastor at church; I called Matt's parents. I called Steve's parents who I just lost two months earlier. And so, by now, six hours later, there was a bunch of commotion, there was a bunch of people and like news vans and stuff at the side of the hole, right? And so finally the police chief pulls us aside and says, I need to talk to the family. And he says that this is an abandoned mine shaft. What this hole is a silver mine, they came in, they dug out all the silver and gold, and they just abandoned the mine and left it empty. And he said the bad news is on in a lot of the mine shafts, like these ones they canal in every single direction as they're digging and sometimes people fall in and they can never be found again they don't know where they got, you know, pivoting, there's no light down there. And so he said the good news is they found Matt and instantly like warmth just washed over me and I had like this massive relief. And he said, the bad news is that this is the deepest mineshaft that he had ever seen in his career, it was 780 feet deep. Matt fell all the way to the bottom and he didn't survive.

So, I was in a car accident with Steve on September 10th, and I fell into a mine shaft with Matt on November 14th. Those were the two closest people I had in my life other than my blood relatives. These were my best, best friends and not only did I lose my two best friends 66 days apart, but I was in the accidents with them and should have died. And so the car accident, my surgeon that worked on me, I have one memory from that hospital visit and it was my surgeon introducing me after I woke up in my hospital room and he had tears coming down his cheeks, and he told me that there's no medical explanation as to how I survived that accident.

So, there's a lot of people that will be like, oh, I almost died because someone ran a red light, and you know, they're kind of exaggerating or whatever. My surgeon literally said, there's no medical explanation as to why he survived. When it comes to the motorcycle accident, the dirt bike accident, if I would've been six more inches to the right, I wouldn't have been able to reach that bush. I would've fallen in the 780 feet with Matt, and we would've just been missing people 'cause both of our bikes went in the hole. Our parents would've eventually come looking for us, they would've found his truck and our camp, and we, and our bikes would've just been missing people forever. And to this day, my parents would've never known what ever happened to me. I'm alive by six inches.

And so that was all at 21 years old. So by my 22nd birthday, I had both those experiences under my belt and I went through a really dark season and this is something that, you know, I don't always share, but I'm feeling more compelled to share recently is when I got in the car accident with Steve, they prescribed me morphine pills, I didn't even know you could take morphine in pill form because of my injuries and it was, you know, supposed to take it when I went home. I did until the pain went away. And about two or three weeks after, maybe less than a week or two after being discharged from the hospital, I stopped taking my pills 'cause I didn't have enough pain for it. I'm not a pill person, right? But I still had probably 30 morphine pills left over that was just sitting in this bottle. Fast forward I lose Matt and I tried something. I tried taking one of those morphines and drinking some hard alcohol with it and what I found out is that I fell asleep for like 18 hours.

And so, I started doing this and telling nobody I would take a morphine and then eventually I would take two, and then eventually I would take more than two, like two and a half, and I would drink straight hard alcohol because I could fall asleep at like four o'clock in the afternoon and I wouldn't wake up until like 11:00 AM the next day. And I was not suicidal, I wasn't trying to kill myself, but I didn't want to be alive. I wanted to like be asleep and not have to deal with all the grief and the emotions that I was going through. And so, I did that for 30 days in absolute despair and I'll never forget it, it was on December 18th. So just real quick again, I lost Matt on November 14^th, it's now a month later, December 18^th, and I'm sitting on my bed in my bedroom at my parents' house. I'm still at my parents' house 'cause it's only three months since the car accident at this point. And I just start yelling at God and I'm just like, how could you do this? How could you let this happen? How could you let Steve die? How could you let Matt die? Why am I still here? I don't wanna be here. How come you didn't let me die? Like why do I have to stay here and be tortured. And then I realized in that moment that God chose for me to have more time, for whatever reason, than Steve and Matt were given. And for me to be a victim and to feel sorry for myself and to take pills and to drink alcohol and everyone would understand, they didn't know that I was doing this. I kept it a secret, but everyone would understand my depression and kind of, you know, why Cole got lost and if I continue to be that victim, that it was spitting in Steven Matt's faces because they didn't get to live. And for me to, who was, for whatever reason, there were three of us, then there were two of us, and there was just me. I got picked to live for me to throw my life away, that is like the biggest slap in their faces ever and it made me really emotional and it still gets me emotional.

And so, I stopped yelling at God and I started talking to Steve, Matt, and I said, you guys will not be forgotten. I will tell your story for the rest of my life and I'm gonna push myself to do more and be more and become more, and to give more and to change more lives because of you. So that when I get to be in heaven someday and I get to re-meet Steve and Matt, I've done enough in my life for the three of us.

One of the things that I struggled with of them being gone so early at 21 was they didn't have enough life to really contribute. They just graduated high school and we were in college still, right? Like these kids didn't even get a chance at life. So, what I said I would do is live a life big enough for the three of us, and I made that commitment to them right there, took the rest of my pills, poured 'em out in the toilet and flushed it, and didn't drink alcohol for like three straight years after that moment, completely went sober and committed to living a bigger life for them. So, back to your original question, what is one thing I want to tell people or want people to know? I'm on borrowed time twice and there's a real perspective change that you have on things like slow internet on airplanes like things that you want to complain about. And I use that as an example 'cause as I was flying over here, I was trying to do some work and I was trying to load my emails and the internet was so slow I couldn't even get in my email. And at first, I got frustrated. I was like, Fricking internet, I paid $18 for this or whatever, and then you start thinking about it. It's like I'm in a metal tube five miles above the earth going 500 miles an hour, and the Internet's not fast enough for me like, what am I even complaining about? I've got so much more perspective on life now because of those two experiences that I oftentimes catch myself from complaining or whining about something because again, life is so much bigger than that.

Michael: Yeah. Generally speaking, I never let anyone and talk that long, but I'm so captivated by that for two reasons, which you don't know 'cause you don't know me that well. One, my best friend Seth got murdered in his living room. Some guy walked in there, shot him in the head. My best friend Kevin got stabbed behind a dumpster on a bad meth deal. I've seen so much loss in my life, so much pain, so much suffering, and I wanted to have that space for you to talk about that because for me, every time that I have the ability to speak about those things, it takes a little bit of the sting away. And I know that there are people listening right now who they've been to hell and back and they've lost people and the reason I started with this concept about being stuck is because they do feel survivor's guilt, they feel shame about why me and not, why not them, man.

Cole: I went through a lot of that.

Michael: Well, that's what I'm moving towards here. Like For me, the reconciliation came and recognizing that I'm supposed to do something great.  Despite the trauma and the abuse, and losing my friends and my mom being a drug addict and dying of an overdose, all of those things. I look at it and go, I'm here for this. I mean, you gotta bear witness to that a little bit today, me speaking your incredible mastermind. And it's like, the reason why I still show up because I wanted to give up like I didn't put a gun in my mouth because I was having a great f*cking time. How do you reconcile with yourself that survivor's guilt?

Cole: So for me it was a process. It wasn't a Bible verse or a conversation, it wasn't an aha moment. It was almost like layers of an onion being peeled that depression and that survivor's guilt. And I still have it if I'm being totally transparent like there are still times God is, like I said, I've lost more than the most and I've been blessed more than most. And one of the ways that survivor's guilt shows up for me is when I have like a big month and we do like a seven-figure month, or it's just something crazy happens in my business or in my personal life. I have a child, right? I have three beautiful babies. I have a sense of guilt because Steve and Matt never had enough life to experience that. And it's like, man, I'm not just getting by like God is giving me abundance. My business is blowing up in a good way. My marriage, as I shared with you a couple of hours ago, is the best it's been in the entire time I've been with my wife like things are amazing for me and a lot of times when I'm in a really good season, survivor's guilt shows up that I feel guilty that I have so much when Steve and Matt didn't even get to live. So that's one way it shows up for me.

How I reconciled that and that's still to this day, but how I tolerate it and how I deal with it, and how I've taken it from unbearable to totally being able to live my life powerfully again, was, like I said, slowly, like the layers of an onion peeling off. And I think where I got my biggest healing was this is another crazy part of my story, but I ended up starting, so that was in 2004 where those two accidents happened when I lost Steve and Matt, 2005 I started my first business and had phenomenal success. 2008, the recession started. I don't know if you remember that. It beat me up and I lost almost everything. So, 2010, I was down to like my last $30,000 to my name in my checking account and quit my business, moved to Mexico and became a missionary. I just felt called to go down there and I realized that I promised Steve and Matt a few years earlier that I would live a life big enough for all of us and the only way that I went about doing that was to start a business and make money. And I thought about it and I was like, if I died today, all I would be able to do is tell Steve and Matt, hey, I got four more years than you and I just went and got rich. All I did was made money. I didn't give back. I didn't contribute, I didn't help others.

So, I went the extreme opposite and moved to Mexico and became a missionary. My business was falling apart because of the recession. So, I gave my dad my half of the company, he was my business partner. I gave him my half of the company. I moved to Mexico, I joined staff with a nonprofit organization called Ywam Youth with a Mission, and my job was to build houses for homeless families.

I lived in Mexico for the next seven and a half months full-time. And the only thing I did was I would like read my Bible and I would surf and I would eat tacos and I would build houses for homeless families, and that was it. And that immersion in that environment slowly but surely helped me process the survivor's guilt so that I could get to the place I'm at now where I could unapologetically pursue things in life without feeling guilty about it.

Michael: What part of that did the processing come through? Because I think that's the place where people get stuck, they're like, I'm gonna go on this mission. I'm gonna go find myself. I'm gonna go and attempt to do all these things for the betterment of the world. But then there's no shift and maybe it's just divine intervention. I mean, I don't know, but was there something you could pinpoint to really kind of being a catalyst for that?

Cole: Dude, for the first time in my life, being alone. Being alone in my thoughts, being alone in my prayer life. For the first time in my life, I tried fasting, which is something that is not even a religious thing anymore like intermittent fasting is like whatever health freak does nowadays. And so, I did like three-day water fasts, where for three days I would do nothing other than drink water, I wouldn't juice like smoothies, nothing, just pure water, no food, and I would just be deep in prayer and deep in meditation and deep in thought. And what I have found even in my more adult life now, is that solitude gives me so much clarity and being alone and away from the noise and being away from the conversations is so powerful. I did a program called 75 Hard, which was started by a friend of mine, Annie Fer, and my favorite part of 75 Hard is for at least 45 minutes a day. I'm completely alone because one of my two workouts, I always either go for a jog or I go for a walk or I go for a bike ride, and then the other workouts at the gym where I'm surrounded by people. But that 45 minute alone oftentimes is my favorite 45 minutes of the entire day. And so, there's something interesting, and I don't know what it is about it, but being alone in my own thoughts, helps me to process way faster.

And so in Mexico, I had no friends. I had no community. I mean, I had a community, I was a part of the nonprofit, but I had left my whole life in the United States. I lived in Mexico with complete strangers. So I was alone all the time. And I think that that was the catalyst that alone time gave me the emotional space and the mental space and the physical space. If we're talking space to slowly process and it took the pain from a 10 to a nine to an eight to a seven. And I would say that it's that alone time, that was the catalyst that did it for me.

Michael: Yeah. Which is also the scariest time 'cause guess what? You've gotta figure out who you are now. And there's nobody to distract you. I always, whenever I'm coaching my clients, one thing I always tell them, I was like, you gotta find the space to be by yourself. One of the greatest things I've ever done in my personal journey, I moved to Thailand one way ticket, and I just sat on beaches and I did martial arts and I ate Thai food. And you know, I did volunteer work and I wrote the first book and it was like, dude, the all the therapy, all the coaching, all the mentorship, I mean all of that plays a role, you know, this obviously, but being there in the space of just presence with me, man, there's so much power in that and people are terrified of it. It's really uncomfortable to be alone 'cause all the both good things and the f*cked up things that you've done and you've experienced, they come to the surface. And I feel like so many people suffer in the silence not knowing that it's actually the gateway.

Cole: I think that's powerful. I think that being alone in your own thoughts is vulnerable to a degree, not publicly, but with yourself. Like you said, you figure out who you are and I've never had this conversation before. Honestly, I've never talked about that being a catalyst and that aloneness, but if that's even a word, but I gotta tell you, man, and for the listeners that are processing right now, something heavy in your own life, just taking a long walk and being completely alone in your own thoughts. The first time, nothing might happen. The second, third time, nothing might happen. But if you're consistent with it, like going to the gym, you go to the gym, once, you didn't lose any weight, you go to the gym five times, five days in a row, you didn't lose any weight. But if you stick with the gym five months, you'll look like a whole new person. And the same is true with being alone. It's gotta be something that you commit to and practice semi daily, if not daily for a couple of months, and you will realize that so many things that are heavy burdens in your life starts to become lighter.

Michael: Yeah. And I think in that too, you do need support, right? And I think one of the really hard parts is here's the juxtaposition of this conversation on the one hand, I completely and utterly agree with you entirely. Obviously, we're on the same page. Go and find the alone time on the other side it's like, you cannot do this alone. You cannot go down this healing path alone. I think people will see guys like you in the world and go, man, this guy’s-built success. He's kind of this public figure guy, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, but you didn't do this by yourself. How do you find help?

Cole: I think through community. And so shout out to the men and women who, from my therapists, to my pastors, to my family, to just my community who have, who have had my back. But I think what you said is really an important distinction to make to your audience is the alone time is important, but I'm not alone 24 7. I'm not a monk that moved to a cave in the middle of the mountains. I am still engaging in conversation and interacting with people. I'm just taking moments of alone time. But to your point having a mentor or having support from somebody is absolutely crucial. And your question was how do you find them? I have found all of those people in my life that have been instrumental through community, through my church, through my masterminds, through my network of just being transparent and telling people, hey, I have a need right now. I'm struggling with this thing. Do you have any recommendations on someone that can help me?

Michael: Let's go into that for a second. 'cause I think that is, you just nailed it on the head. Your willingness to be transparent, but it's the scariest thing people can do. More so let's add a layer to, it's probably the most terrifying thing most men can do. We grew up being told, figure it out, man up, don't be a bitch. And there's an element to that, which I can get on board with, it's like you do have to pull yourself through, but the side of it that I can't is the ostracization of it, where you're by yourself, you're eliminated from all of your community society, and you're suffering in silence. What is your thought process like in a literal sense? When you're asking for help, like what is going through your head that leads down to this path where you're like, I'm gonna raise my hand and be like, this is where I'm at, this is the place I'm struggling. Can someone help me?

Cole: Yeah. I think for me, and you know, again, another unique question, but my initial response, lemme think this through. I guess it's uncomfortable at first to ask for help, of course, but I get to a point eventually where the pain is stronger than the discomfort of asking for help. And so, I might have something that's embarrassing, like, I'm depressed about losing Steve and Matt, and I want to have a therapist to talk to me, but that's an embarrassing, I'm just making this up. But that's an embarrassing thing to talk about. Right. But the depression will grow to a point where you're so miserable that the discomfort is stronger than the concerns or afraid or shyness of asking for help. Does that make sense?

And so, I think for me to answer your question, where I got to was I was just so broken and so sick of being broken that the shame of asking for help, whatever, you know, and there is no shame in asking for help. I'm saying at the moment, like, maybe I had some shame in asking for help or embarrassment or whatever it was that like maybe for six months I knew I needed some support and I just kept putting it off for that shame, that embarrassment or whatever. But the pain eventually got to the point where I just couldn't take it anymore. You know, physical, my buddy had a tooth problem. I don't know why this is coming to my head and he lived with it for like six months, and you've to like hold his cheek. I'm like, what is wrong with you? And finally, he ended up biting something and breaking his tooth. And so, then he had to go to the dentist and get it fixed and now his mouth is fine. And it's like, how sad was it that he lived with pain for six months until finally it became a big enough problem that he had to address it, and now his life is fine again. But it took the pain getting unbearable before he took action.

Michael: You know, it's so apropos, right? Because if you look at that, you're like, why must we suffer to the point in which really the universe is like, I'm gonna break your tooth 'cause you're stupid and you're not paying attention. The signs have been here for six months. And it's like, okay, where do you have to break down? My wife left me. My kids won't talk to me. The business isn't failure mentally, I'm like me, I'm gonna put a gun in my mouth. I'm just completely done. The thing that I'm always trying to solve for a Cole, and one of the biggest reasons I've made almost 650 episodes of this podcast with hundreds of people is like, how the hell do you avoid the rock bottom? Like, how do you mitigate the risk of life being so disastrously bad that you have to change or die? And I think the hard part, and this is why I'm asking the question, is I don't know that you can, I feel like you have to have the rock bottom.

Cole: Yeah, I think there's truth to that. I've had friends in my life who have been making poor decisions where we as an inner circle around them come together and say, what are we gonna do to help this person? And for some of 'em, you just gotta let them hit rock bottom, myself included, sometimes you've gotta hit rock bottom. There's one thing that you said a second ago that made me think of accountability of how to avoid complete and utter disaster is allowing people in your life permission to speak truth in your life. And that's important, the permission part, because people that try to speak truth in your life without you giving them that permission, it can backfire. And you can go the opposite direction, if I'm like, Hey bro, you got a drinking problem, you should knock it off. Well, now you probably think I'm a dick and you're gonna go drink even more. But if I'm someone who you've given that level of permission to, to speak truth in your life, and I come to you in a non-aggressive, non-threatening, loving capacity, and I'm like, bro, I love you and I want what's best for you, and you're better than this. You deserve better than this. Your community deserves better than this. You gotta stop drinking. How different that would be.

And so one thing I want to throw out there's hitting rock bottom, which each of us need to in some capacity hit rock bottom. A lot of people losing weight or smoking cigarettes. You shared with our mastermind that you used to smoke, that's an even better example. You could get yelled at by all your friends. Stop smoking. Stop smoking. But it's when you go to the doctor and they say, Hey, we see a little bit of cancer that now you finally found the motivation to stop smoking that's the version of rock bottom.

So there's a degree of rock bottom. I think that totally changes our lives, that each of us have to hit that rock bottom in some capacity, in some area of life. But I also think it's important to help avoid hitting rock bottom in other capacities, to have those people who you've given permission to speak truth into your life.

Michael: I love that and I agree. And for me, honesty is one of the most core tenets of my life. Honesty for me is non-negotiable, it’s a mother*cker at times. And with my community, they all know, like, it's always an open door, but I think people are terrified of it, man, because it's forest for the trees. It's hard for people to understand that I have your best interest in mind, even though I see you destroying your life. I wanna be like, Cole, don't you see what you're doing? We all see it. You're not paying attention. But we combat that so hard. How do you build that community of trusted people who you know that when they sit down to you and they go, Hey, man, that they actually do have your best interests because I think people's fear is so much tied into this person's taking, they don't see the struggle, it's hard, like how do you actually put those people in your life?

Cole: I think it's time and experience. I think that luckily, I've got a great family dynamic. My parents as I think I mentioned to you, have been married for 52 years married together, 54, and I've got awesome sisters and I've got this awesome network of people who, by blood relation, have that level of permission, which I guess as I say that I know other people who unfortunately have a different family dynamic where they can't trust their blood relatives. So, I'm very blessed in the sense that God just put people in my life, which is sadly somewhat unique as far as the people I choose, we call them family, right? Your family are the people you can't choose. Your family are the friends that you choose to make your family. And those family members in my life, it's after experience and after trust and time.

For me to allow someone to speak to me like a brother or a sister, we have to share values. I have to know that when people give me advice, I'm trusting that it's their best piece of advice, like from their perspective. But if they have a totally different value system, their best piece of advice for me could be actually the worst piece of advice to take. Right? So, I need to have time with 'em to make sure we have similar value systems. I need to make sure that they truly want what's best for me, and they're not the friend that. Like there's the jealousy factor to where they almost want to see you not succeed and I've had to deal with that bro because I have had some success in business where very close friends of mine after a while got sick of me winning and became very jealous and it really harmed our relationship because I could tell that they didn't want what was best for me anymore and just through their attitude and all that.

So, that's where the time factor comes in. If someone can ride with you they're your ride or die, whether that's a male or a female, whether that's someone that you're in a relationship with, like my wife or buddies with, like Jerome here. After enough time and after enough experiences and I know that this person has a similar value system, then I don't think that there's ever a conversation where I'm like, Hey, Michael, I want to give you permission to speak truth into my life when you see me screwing up. I don't know that I've ever had that conversation, although it's not a bad one to have. I think that you just get a proximity to somebody and a closeness in the relationship where it's like a default factor. If you really care about another human being, then you're going to share the best pieces of advice and wisdom you can with that human being to win or if they're struggling to get out of the struggle that they're dealing with.

Michael: You know what I think is really interesting about that like I'm playing through this thought in my head. Like the people who are closest to us often are also the ones that hurt us the most, especially in truth. And I think about past relationships and I think about women I've dated and the connections we've had, and like when I'm sitting in front of truth with them historically, I'd like to say it'll be different in the future, I'm single now, so I have no idea. But what I do think is like, I look back in those moments, those experiences and it like, it just cut deeper, you know what I mean? Because they're so close to us and I think what ends up happening, we put these walls up in front of the people who are there, who love us the most.

Cole: That openness though, and that ability of being heard is part of the beauty of relationships, right? Because it's realness like being so open and so vulnerable to someone that they can hurt you to that degree is what relationships are supposed to be in my life. So let me be clear. They shouldn't be hurting you but letting someone so far into your life that they have the ability to absolutely destroy you are oftentimes the most meaningful, deepest, most rewarding, satisfying relationships you can have, they're not superficial, they're deep. Superficial people in your life can only give you superficial wounds, but the deep wounds is because you've gone deep with that person and you have a unique relationship with them. And this isn't a romantic sense too. I've got dudes in my life who are brothers to me, who could deeply wound me if they came to me and they're like, you know what Cole? I kind of think you're a dick. I don't wanna hang out with you anymore. I hate your family, and I think that you should just die. I mean, it's still heavy, but if someone came up and said that to me that I had just met, I'll be like, okay, thanks. But there are a handful of men in my life where I would be crushed enough to go talk to my therapist about that for a while.

And so, I think that that's part of the beauty of relation is the trust that you're gonna let someone in your life who is that close and that meaningful, who could hurt you in that capacity, but doesn't because the relationship is based in love. So, I love the way you speak and I'm glad we got to meet today, and I agree with what you're saying, but I just wanted to throw that in there too, that level of opening up to somebody else is part of what I think is the beauty of relationships.

Michael: Yeah, I agree. And I think like that is one of the cornerstones of our human experience.

Cole: Totally. That's the better way of saying it. Absolutely. Who wants to live their life with nothing but superficial, meaningless relationships. Part of the beauty of the human experience is going deep with other individuals, I think, and sharing life with them.

Michael: I don't think anyone necessarily wants to. I think it just gets so ingrained in the people that they're not worthy of it. They're not worthy of great relationships, of great friendships and brotherhood.

Cole: Where do you think that comes from? Because if I'm being honest, I don't really struggle with worthiness, and this isn't out of arrogance. I don't have like crazy ego where I think I'm something special, but like, maybe it's my religious background, I'm a Christian, born and raised in the church, and so like, everything's so relational, but to your point, like why do you think that is?

Michael: I think unfortunately, and I would say I know 'cause I've had worthiness and confidence and self-esteem issues that had to be built through and healed through. And it's difficult for so many people when you grow up being told you're not worth anything and you suck and you're a loser.

Cole: Yeah. I remember your origin story is so different than mine. How crazy is that?

Michael: Yeah. Entirely. And so, like, on this one hand, and I love that yours is different than mine. Like every single time I hear, it's funny 'cause people ask me like, don't you get mad that people had parents? I'm like, no. I'm like, that's fucking super stoked for you man. And for me, I look at it and I'm like, if I wouldn't have that, I don't get to serve how I get to serve today. And so, that fills me up and the reason I ask these questions, 'cause I just wanna plant seeds in people's minds and so yeah, sure you didn't have that worth issue, but people who have, I just want them to understand it's possible to move through that you can still build confidence 'cause I mean, dude, your confidence must have been shattered after those accidents.

Cole: It was, to a lot of degrees. I'm just sitting here processing, thinking about how different our stories were and the worthiness and the conclusion that I'm drawing in my own mind is how much more pressure I'm gonna put on myself as a father to raise my beautiful little girls and my beautiful little son to know that they're worthy, like I am right now in my own life. Knowing your backstory and just hearing you talk right now, going to make a more conscious effort to tell my children that they're worthy to ingrain that into their minds and how important it is for all of us who are parents to not just tell your kids like, hey, you're great at sports and hey, you did great in your grades, but to like make eye contact with 'em and say, you are worthy and you deserve greatness, and you deserve love and, and you deserve relationships and you deserve honesty. And anyway, I just wanted to share that and I think I'm just like being convicted as a parent right now and just how sad it is that your upbringing was as rough as it was and how different your life would look if you had been born to a different parent, but that wasn't God's calling in your life. God wanted to give you your story so that you can impact people in the way that you are right now. Anyway, it's just a powerful realization I'm having right now, just listening to you talk.

Michael: Yeah. I see you getting emotional about it and to me, it's everything, right? Like having these real true vulnerable stories and not always one of the reasons why I've leaned so hard on this podcast 'cause it can't always be like with the guy like me who grew up in hell, it's like, there's the guy like you who you didn't grow up in hell, but you had to walk through it. And it's like, I look at that and I think to myself, there are people in the world where they're shattered by the experiences like what you've had, it ruins everything for them and they can't make it back. And I'm just like, just go one more day when the calling happens like I'm spiritual, like I'm not religious, I'm not walking into a church, but I'm very spiritual and I'm very tied to source and I'm just like, man. Sometimes the answer's right here, right? And the universe is like tapping you on the shoulder. It's like, Hey, dummy. I keep, it's like the tooth thing, right? And it's like, Hey dude, will you, just for the love of me, God's, Spirit, Universe, mother nature, whatever you want, will you just do the thing you know you need to do? And in a moment for you, that thing was asking for help. And, and I hope that this conversation will encourage more people to do it because there's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't be here. And you're living into something powerful and beautiful. And that in its own right can be terrifying because then you go, well, why me? Why not them? And it's like, well, you don't get any say in this, so you should probably show up. As we tell off here and I appreciate this man, I know how busy you are. It means the world to me. What kind of legacy, going back to your children, what kind of legacy do you want to leave? Like how do you want to be remembered by them?

Cole: By my children. A couple of ways as far as my relationship to them, that daddy believed in them and that that daddy loved them unconditionally and that I didn't always necessarily support their decisions, but they never lost my love that my children knew that sometimes Daddy got mad at us for making poor decisions, but his love was constant and never ending and unconditional gets me emotional. But if my children can know, there's nothing that they could ever do that would make me love them less and that they believe that to their core, not just because it's nice and sounds like a little Hallmark car, but to their core, they're like, my father will have my back forever, that's a legacy that I wanna leave for them. As far as for the world, I have a nonprofit, called Make Money Matter, and we have an orphanage in Mexico part of the story I didn't tell is when I was a missionary living in Mexico. I started an orphanage in 2011 that I still have to this day, many people have gone and visited. It's great. My legacy will be that I gave more than I took and that I earned tens of millions or even someday hundreds of millions of dollars. But I lived off little and I gave most, and that I was the most generous guy ever and that my legacy is all of the, what do you want to call it? Karmic debt or it just me contributing, God reciprocating, whatever it is that my children are just blessed because I lived a life of servitude and so, they get blessed through my efforts.

Michael: Beautiful man. My last question for you, my friend, actually second to last. Where can people find you and where can people learn more about you?

Cole: Just social media on Cole Hatter. No underscores, no dots, no whatever. Just at Cole Hatter, is probably the best place. I got a couple of websites, but those don't matter either, so just social media is the best place to find me at Cole Hatter.

Michael: Okay, amazing. And of course, we'll put the links in the show notes. Guys, my last question, my friend. What does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Cole: Man, a lot of what we were talking about, I think being unbroken means that you are emotionally overflowing. I think that unbrokenness means that when you are alone in the shower or on a jog, or whenever we were talking about being alone earlier, whenever you're alone, you feel overwhelmingly fulfilled in your relationships, in your partnerships and in your calling. And I think being unbroken is being honest with the parts of you that are broken. I think an unbroken person is honest about the depression or the concern or the unworthiness that they're experiencing and seeking help is part of being unbroken. And I would say the last part about being unbroken is giving back. Tony says, the secret to living is giving. I think unbroken people, they say hurt people, hurt people. I think unbroken people lift people up through giving whatever that looks like, giving of your time, your resources, your money, et cetera. I would say that's the last third part of being unbroken.

Michael: Brilliantly said, my friend. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation. Thank you for listening. Please like, subscribe, comment, share, tell a friend, and remember that when you do, you're helping other people transform their trauma to triumph. Breakdowns to breakthroughs and you're helping them become the hero of their own story.

Until Next Time, My Friends.

Be Unbroken.

I'll See Ya.