How to Transform Challenges into Success with Inspiring Stories

Unlocking Your Dream Life: Building a Thriving Business with Jim Palmer 

Michael: It's funny because I became an executive VP of marketing for international multimillion dollar company when I was 30. And that's outside of Think Unbroken, a company I'm still a part of and so Think Unbroken is another business obviously. And I think about the massive amount of stress that people, especially in executive leadership positions are under I mean, across my companies, we sit around 30 plus employees, right? And doing multimillion dollars in businesses. And dude, I'll have these days where today's a f**** perfect example, Jim, where it's like up at 5:30, out the door at six into the office by seven, hit the gym, do the thing, show up, do the meetings, blah, blah, blah. And then in the middle of it, I sit and I go, why am I doing this? And in that moment, what I always remind myself of is that, I'm fulfilled and I'm happy. And I think a lot of times what happens is people, and you could be working anywhere, it doesn't matter. But as long as you're fulfilled, it seems to me that I'm willing to drive and I'm willing to go forward. But so many people get caught up and then life hits them, they lose the job, they find out they get cancer and then all of a sudden they're in this place where it's like, oh man, I did all that hard work and I was feeling good about life and things were great and I was on top of the world and like you talked about the ego thing, trust me, I've had multiple ego deaths in my leadership career. And I'm wondering like, when you're faced with that moment – two things come to mind. One, there's that space and place for lack of better phrase, ego death. And then there's that space for, okay, well Jim, what are you gonna do about it?

Jim: An identity goes to death goes right with that, Michael, because you know, in my own description, I've done a lot of speaking I say I went from being an unemployed loser, my own language ‘cause I'm watching neighbors go to work and I’m like hat is going on? I'm reading papers, applying, and all these different things. I know now that, you know, God had different plans for me, which kind of put me through that whole thing. But in the process, I mean, again, I ran national franchise and I did a lot of things, so I thought, man, this is gonna be great, but this is what I was meant to do. And going through a lot of what I went through is part of what makes me a good coach today, right? It is the broken mindset, it is feeling like you have no self-worth until you figure out what are your real gifts and talents, and maybe you can make a business out of those and serve others with the experience we go through.

I did an interview just yesterday, Michael, and someone mentioned how you supposed to share it. Reminded me when I got the cancer, which was melanoma, which I had never heard of until I got the diagnosis and I shared it with all my family, including, you know, distant cousins and two of my cousins went and had something checked, turned out to be melanoma because I shared it with them.

Who knows lots of reasons why we go through things but it's just interesting that so many of our experiences and what I learned is, you know, probably men and women, but I think probably a little bit more men, we are tied to our title. Right. I mean, oh my God. Hey, I am a VP, I wanted to be a VP by 40. I made it and then, then lost my job, right? But we're so driven by our identity, by who we think we are, based on title or status or things like that. And I'm here to tell you, I've been really, really broken to use your terminology and that's not who I was at all.

Michael: Yeah. When you were in that, you know, I look at, I don't wanna call that your rock bottom I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, but when I hit mine at 25, you know, I'm looking at this life, it's like, dude, you made a million bucks, you're 50 grand in debt, 350 pounds, life is this disaster. And I realize, Jim, like my health was on the line. I got super sick. I actually almost died. I got this bacterial infection. And I was like, nobody's coming, ain't nobody coming to save your ass and that was this really, really interesting moment for me because for the first time it really felt like I was taking accountability of my life. What was it like for you in that moment? Cause like, to me, look, I've never had cancer. I don't know what that's like, but I do know what it's like to be on your literal deathbed like, am I gonna make it through the night? What was happening like in your life and in your mind in that moment?

Jim: You know, I was getting pretty desperate, but I also, I mean, we have four children and when I lost my job, four kids still at home, four teenagers, so, luckily the food bill was astronomical. I got for I dunno what it would be like today in today's dollars, but I still had four teenagers at home. And I was trying to do the right thing and look, I'm finding work became my full-time job but believe me, there are moments I'm like, what have I done? I mean, was it so important me to climb and go from job to job? And for more, more, more, more, more. I had this thing, I wanted to have a boat my whole life. I wanted to have a house on a lake with a boat and all that was just something, they were things that I was chasing, right? And I know that now, nothing wrong with having things, but I look back at those darkest moments and believe me, even after I started my business, I went literally overnight from being an unemployed loser to the CEO of my own corporation ‘cuz it said so in my glossy business card that I got from Vistaprint. Right?

Michael: I wasn't making no money.

Jim: Oh my God. I had a chair and I set my office up, this is gonna be great. And two months later, I got no money coming in, you know, I'm a business owner, but I got no money. And you know, it was interesting when I was unemployed, Stephanie told me about this group at church, which was for unemployed people, it was like a support group. I said, I ain't going to that, why not? Oh, I'm gonna stand there, Hey, I'm Jim, I'm unemployed. Well, maybe you can help somebody else, maybe it's not about you. She told me that, I mean, it really hit me right in the eyes with that one. And it's true, I went there and because of my experience, I was able to help a few other guys and you know what happened? Things started turning for me a little bit. So, I dunno, it's probably a long weaving answer, but I learned about being in service to others during that whole time. You know, one of the times that was really scary to us was we were approaching Thanksgiving and Christmas with like no money and I'm starting to bankroll mortgage and things on credit cards, keeping the family afloat. And somebody knocked on our door and left like two huge bags of groceries, including a Turkey and all the fixings and stuff. And I'm like, what in the hell was that? I mean, I'm like, that is amazing. I hope I can pay it forward someday. But all these different things started happening and I dunno if that answered your question or not but it was by far the most pivotal moment in my life going through that. And by the way, the season of crisis, a lot of times after you get cancer, you know, you say you're gonna be okay. The doctors say you're gonna be okay. I mean, I go for like, checkups three, four times a year the rest of my life. But you start wondering, well, why did that happen to me? Why me? Right. And our church, the men's group at our church gave out this book once and it was called The Seven Seasons of The Man In The Mirror. And to me, I'm like, I ain't gonna read that. I'm not gonna read that. I was reading business books and Mysteries. I'm not gonna read that book. Right. Well, I picked it up one night, Michael and I flipped a table of contents, it turns out the author was actually an entrepreneur. So, I said, oh, maybe, let me see if this guy's talking about. And chapter three was called Season of Crisis. And sometimes, you know, don't mind me talking about the Lord a lot, but the Lord will bless you with a season of crises to bring you into a right relationship with him. And that made sense to me ‘cuz up to that point, I admit, I thought everything I was doing great was all on me, I'm great. And I know now that's not the case, but so that's why I went through all that. And as hard as it was, as you know, we racked up over six figures in credit card debt but all that was the turning point for me and just help me start the business and then grow from there, I mean, that's a whole another chapter about fixing mindset, you know, growing businesses and stuff. But that was honestly it's easy language when I felt very, very broken.

Building Confidence and Learning from Failure with Ken Joslin

Michael: I think so frequently there are people who will listen this, they'll see men and women and people like you doing what you're doing, they'll have these dreams these ideas, these things that keep them awake at night and the fear of the uncertainty of trying to attempt to create that life. Right? Whether it's going to the gym, whether it's eating healthy, whether it's building a giant conference there's always that thing where people will tend to let themselves off the hook. And so, what I'm curious about Ken is and how in your life, how have you face fear to be able to position yourself to go and be successful? I have a theory that that people are more terrified of success than they are a failure. So how do you go through and give yourself not only permission to be successful but to be willing to face the fear and have the conversation with yourself at 2 a.m.?

Ken: Well, I think my book that I wrote back in October was stemmed from a conversation from 20 years ago. I was 31 years old, it was a day after I just walked off of the biggest states I'd ever been asked to speak on 8-9 thousand leaders behind John Maxwell, and in front of my mentor. And my mentor set me down the next day at lunch and she said, can I want to ask you a very important question? She said, do you want to be significant or do you want to be successful? Because those are two vastly different things.

And so it's been a 20-year journey for me to really strive to be a significant leader and significant leaders build others around them so that those people can win. People who chase success, use other people around them, so they can win. And when you strive to be a significant leader, when you strive, to make a difference in other people's lives, the difference is not only can I financially do well and not only can the lives of those around me, be blessed. Do when I lay my head on the pillow at night time? There's such a high level of fulfillment that you can't put a dollar, but you can't put a price tag on.

There's no comma in your bank, check out that equals being able to be in live at that level of fulfillment knowing you made that big of an impact and difference in people's lives.

Michael: Yeah, and in that, how do you hold on to that? Because there's people, all rewind I'm 25 years old, my life is a disaster, 350 pounds, smoking two packs a day, drinking myself to sleep, my life is a disaster. I'm great at money, I'm working for a fortune 10 company, no high school diploma, no college education, I'm doing the impossible but every other aspect of my life is terrible, and I'm constantly thinking to myself, okay, go and be of service, go do something different. And it wasn't telling a mentor a few years later, had told me like when you're at your lowest go and be of service because that's how you actually can create change in the world and also how you make your life different. And so, what I'm curious about Ken was there a moment in your life where where prior to being sat down and saying hey, you know, is it significant or success that you're seeking that started to drive you towards being of service? Because I feel like so many people have that inside of them they think about it, it's constantly on their mind, they see people like you are I and they go, I would love to be able to do that, but they don't. And that's kind of the thing I'm trying to narrow into like how do you step into that?

Ken: You know, for me it started in August of 1993 when I became a Christ follower it really was, I was 25 years old never really raised interest in knowing a lot. And when I heard the gospel for the first time and not, you know, from a religious context of, if you check these three spiritual boxes you and God are okay, but really that God sent his son to take my place that he lived on earth 33 years sinless, gave his life for me and because of that and I can have everything that I've ever done and everything that I will do be forgiven just through simply putting my faith and trust in what he did for me. And when that happened dude, that was such a change and transformation in my life at 25 years old, it was such an impact in my life that it had a ripple effect and all the relationships around me. And so what happened I think from that day forward was and I was always a kid growing up in the neighborhood, I was one that schedule, like all the football games in the neighborhood and got all the kids play ball, let's just kind of always kind of my thing kind of I guess like the neighborhood coach kid, like I was the one that got everybody together, but I think it took a different level of service. You know, when I kind of encounter God and Jesus really made that big of a transformation in my life Michael and really, from that point forward it was, man, I want other people to experience life the way that I am experiencing life. I want other people to understand what peace is, I want other people to understand, you know what it means to really live and understand what your purpose in life is and not only that but the level of fulfillment that you can experience from walking in that purpose and being in service of others, I think those are huge.

I've got four daughters, 26, 22, 18 and 13. My 26-year-old was in kindergarten, so you're talking about 21 years ago. I used to drive to school I let her out in the carpool line, that look at her, her name's Holly Nasty, been married for a year, man. Amazing young woman, loves God, loves her husband, just absolutely going for a master's degree. She teaches inner-city kids kindergarten 1st graders, in his inner city school teacher and a society every day before I dropped them off I'd say hey, baby, what a servant leaders do. And they would say, Daddy servant leaders, do three things, they put other people's needs before their own, they do things right the first time and they do things without being asked, that's okay baby, that's awesome.

That today when you get in the car, what are you going to give daddy?

She goes. I'm going to give you an example of how as a servant leader today.

You fast-forward, 20, 18 years, 19 years, she comes a Birmingham to go to college, and she gets a job at Chick-fil-A and quickly moves up the ranks in Pitch at the brand New Chick-fil-A here in Birmingham and about, a year year and a half into her employment there she sends me a picture of, you know, Chick-fil-A were the kitchen is and they got those does a slide like the chicken nuggets down in the Tate and the french fries and all that stuff written on a sharpie marker were those three things that servant leaders do.

She had taught and that's how she had literally led her team was through servant leadership so much so that she just kept getting promoted and promoted and promoted promoted in finally, won the day's, the owner operator said, how are you doing this? She goes, he goes back to the three things my dad taught me the servant leaders do because I want you to write that down and it's literally in the Chick-fil-A, this was three or four years ago, it's still there in Sharpie Market, it's written where they slide the food down, three things that servant leaders do.

When you have a heart of a servant leader, it becomes about other people and not about yourself it when you do that, dude, you know, this Michael Man people are attracted to authenticity and people who are genuine that want something for you and not something from you.

Michael: Yeah, that's really beautiful. And I think about the impact that leadership at a young age can have on people and not only that, but it sets up this beautiful precedent for them and turn to deliver that to others and you know II fell into leadership really by accident, you know, working into retail at a very young age, working in fast food, at a really young age and learning these skills eventually putting me in this position now to be able to be so fortunate to lead thousands and thousands of people every single day and it does start I mean you hit it right on the head like it's about other people, it's about taking these tools in these understandings what we have been able to do and shaping our lives and deliver it in ways that other people can consume them because ultimately, I think about us like we're communal species, right? And without being those environments, without being spoken into from other people, without consuming the information, you know, it's really fascinating to me that the difference of your life when you aren't showing up versus when you are. And I think, you and I obviously who both love John Maxwell and his leadership books, you were thinking about this ideas of value. I think one of the things I want to talk about here is, how do you find value and purpose and what you do while still being an entrepreneur? Because I know right now, the Unbroken Nation, I recognize that some of them are entrepreneurial or have a side hustle, some of them are entrepreneur, some of them are just trying to figure it out.

And I think that people so often in this kills me about this society, as so often, torn about the idea of being of service and making money. Talk about that Ken.

Ken: Well, I did an event in October in Vegas with my good friend Bradley. And Brad said this in his talk on Saturday morning, he said this, he said when we stopped focusing on revenue only and we started focusing on how we could serve and help our clients solve problems, he goes the revenue needle moved at such a pace and at a level that we had never experienced before because it wasn't just about the dollar, it wasn't transactional, we heard this at create, it wasn't transactional it was relational. How can I build a relationship with you? How can I help you win? It would be personally professionally or financially, how can I help you win in your life and it goes back to the old Ziglar quotes my favorite quote from Zig if I help enough people get what they want eventually I'm going to get what I want.

And so I know that if I serve people and help people and love people, especially in today's culture dude, it's so rare to have somebody like you, who literally just wants to serve people, who literally just wants to take care of people, who wants to help people go from whatever level, they are to the next level. And then from that level to even to the next level like what are you dreaming for? What are you wanting to do? What are you wanting to accomplish in your life? In really calling them to a higher level, really compelling and encouraging them being the Catalyst for, hey, you can change, you get better, you can do the things that you want to do is not going to happen overnight, but you can do it. And so, I think that's it, dude, went like Brad said, when you focus on solving problems, when you focus on building relationships, the financial piece, moving the needle with your revenue and your business those things are naturally going to happen, but I think when you focus on that first, you tend to be drawn into transactional versus relational. And dude, there's so much transaction that goes on right now in the world that we live in its really, it's not healthy and what it could cost you though is this Michael when you live a life where it's about relationships and is not just about transaction, sometimes it's going to cost you, sometimes people going to take advantage of you, sometimes those things are going to happen, and guess what? When that happens you have to go you know what? That's okay. I'm still going to lean in what I know that I know number one, who God created me to be and what called to do and I'm going to serve people, I'm going to take care of people.

And when you do that the revenue, needless Brad said our van back in October the revenue needles going to move because people are going to take notice when to you, because of your authenticity and your desire to want something for them, as I said earlier and not from them.

Navigating The Mental Health To Be a Multi-million Dollar Entrepreneur with Amy Porterfield

 Michael: Yeah. You know what's really interesting too is I reflect on a lot of the things that I've been able to do in my life. I really do truly mean this like, I shouldn't be here, I should be dead or in jail. And the momentary celebrations often have felt overshadowed by the need to sabotage, which I've had to do all the therapy for. And today it's very, where I sit in it and I have grace, I have compassion for myself, and it's literally the foundation of what I teach my clients, it's like, hold on, wait a second. You are not your worst fuck up. You're not. You're not your worst mistake. But this idea, I want to go into this TikTok and yes, everyone has a TikTok, it's fine. Two-part question, a – how do you actually define self-sabotage? And then b – how do you recognize it?

Amy: So, for me, I define self-sabotage as not allowing yourself to have something good stay in your life. So, if something good happens, you're gonna push it away, you're gonna do something to get rid of it, or you're just gonna have a thought that now something bad's gonna happen. So how would you define it?

Michael: Yeah. For me it is unconsciously doing things that I know are to the detriment of the life that I want to create.

Amy: Okay. Yeah, that makes perfect sense as well. Doing something to the detriment of all this good that you could have. Yes, absolutely.

Michael: Yeah. And so, defining it, the thing that it's been able to do for me has helped me recognize it. And so that was the other like, how do you recognize, look, let's face it, you have been able to build a massive online career, you're one of the best public speakers in the country, you've worked with some of the greatest minds on planet Earth. And I know that people are gonna be like, there's no way this person's self-sabotage. Right? But we all do. And so how do you notice it? Like you're getting ready to do a launch or you're getting ready tom write this book and it's like, how do you know if Amy's not doing the thing?

Amy: Yes. Okay. So, one of the things that helps me notice what's going on with me is the art or the practice of journaling. Now, I don't even like to journal. It's just I wish I did, it's not my favorite thing. But every morning if I spend 10 minutes journaling and I do a brain dump, what's going on? Let's see if we can work it out on the paper. When I see all the things that I think are going to happen that in a bad way, all the bad things that are going to happen or when I'm only focusing on the negative throughout all of these pages, I know there's some self-sabotage here because there's always good things happening around us if we look for it, if we allow them to come in.

And so, if all I'm doing is thinking about all the scary things, all the bad things, what I'm afraid of, I'm not letting something good happen in bloom. And to me, it's like the evidence right there, you're self-sabotaging.

Michael: Wow. That's really profound. It actually makes me wanna go and look at some of my older journals now because I am a journal, journal, journal, whatever, you know. And so, I always have kind of looked at being a writer before anything before coach, before speaker, before a podcast host. And now I'm very curious if that's the kind of language that I was actually putting in that journal and if maybe we could make meaning of that ‘cause I'm always pushing people here like go journal, write down, get that stuff outta your head.

Amy: So, powerful. I hope one day I enjoy it and love it. I don't know why I struggle with it so much, maybe you know; I've never thought about it this way. I wonder if I struggle with journaling so much because I do have to face the things I actually don't wanna talk about. So, if I am sharing my fears, if I am putting down on paper what I'm worried about, and I'm a natural worrier, so there's lots of worry. Sometimes I'm just like, I don't wanna deal with this. I wanna pretend like it's not there. I wanna go do my work, do another Facebook Live, do another TikTok that is not healthy, you have to deal with it. So I think now maybe it's because of that, but journaling doesn't have to be all negative. There's so many amazing prompts you could do about what you love, what you're grateful for, what you're looking forward to. I probably don't do that enough.

Michael: Yeah, and I think, I don't either. I don't think anyone does. I mean, especially not in this society, right? Where everything's negative all the time, always, you really have to be cognizant of that, right? And I mean, I think often you cannot hide from yourself and that's true of my journal, of my mirror, of this show, of the things that I create. And it's like, I remember when I was in my twenties, like I was working for a Fortune 10 company. I have no high school diploma, no college education. I was making six figures, it's very improbable but I was deep, deep, deep into self-sabotage. And I've shared this on the show before, by the time I was 26, I made a million dollars and I was 50 grand in debt and you talk about hiding from it, like the bills would come and I would put 'em under the other bills and I would stuff them down. And then my sister would call me and she'd be like, why are these people calling me? And it's like inevitably. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try to run from yourself, you have to recognize you're going to discover who you are. And I think like innately as humans, it's part of suffering to look at the truth. But it's also the very thing that frees you, you know, which leads me to thinking about your journey. You know, you go back, I would dare say there's a lot of people who would literally kill for the job that you used to have and people would look at that and go, how could she ever give that up? And I'm wondering how much of that experience, and if you wanna talk about the job, you're more than welcome to, but I'm wondering how much of the experience of that moment in time, which has now transformed you and your life into what it is was about you honoring your truth and your authenticity?

Amy: So, such a great question. So, I worked for Tony Robbins for almost seven years as the director of content development. So, I got to travel the world with Tony and the team and work on the content that he does on stage, like unleash the power within and date with Destiny, anyone who knows Tony knows those events, and it was incredible. It was an incredible experience. And one thing I've never, ever, ever talked about is that every day I thought I was going to lose my job or get in trouble or do something wrong, not because of the environment that Tony Robbins environment was incredible and I loved working there, and Tony was good to me, it was more so all my demons, all my fears, all my insecurities, it was a really amazing job and I was scared I wasn't worthy of it or that I was going to do something wrong, and that's that self-sabotage. I got something great. I got, you're right. I got a position and I got paid well, and I got to travel that many people would've loved. And I thought, maybe I don't deserve this, or maybe I'm not good enough. And so, I really struggled through that experience and kind of haven't really thought about why some days were really hard, I loved it and I kind of silently struggled behind the scenes with my own insecurities. But when I officially decided to leave, it had nothing to do with not loving my job, and it really probably didn't have anything to do with those insecurities I even mentioned, it came to a point that for the first time ever, and I had been in corporate since I left my days of college, it was the first time ever I thought, I want to do something on my own. I want more freedom. I wanna call the shots. I wanna be more creative. I wanna build something for me. So, it was something that, it was like God guided, because for me, I didn't have confidence at the time. I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do on my own. But there was this knowing that I do want something different and something really exciting. So, I don't know how that all came about, but it really did happen that way.

Michael: Yeah. And there there's a calling to it, right? Like, what I'm curious about is, ‘cuz I think a lot of people feel that, right? Whether it's jobs, relationships, anything that transpires in our life, we often feel pulled to, this is the thing that I need to do. And my argument for myself to do the thing is to recognize that if I don't, I'm going to die with regret. And that to me is honestly the most terrifying thing on planet Earth. And so, what was kind of the timeframe, if you can remember between you starting to have these ruminations to the execution of walking into arguably one of the greatest jobs in America and being like, I'm out.

Amy: Yeah, so it actually, there was a very specific moment that happened. So, I'd been there for about, I don't know, six years or so. And Tony had a meeting at the San Diego headquarters where I worked and he brought in a bunch of internet marketers, they were all men, and it was Brendon Burchard and Frank Kern and Jeff Walker, and the most amazing internet marketer guys. And I didn't know who any of them were, but what happened was Tony was starting to do more stuff online, building up his digital course library, all that good stuff and he was just curious how these guys were running their business. And so, he went around the table and he is like, tell me about your business, and all I heard them say was freedom like they talked about creativity, freedom, lifestyle freedom, financial freedom, they were calling the shots, they had time to be with their families, they were going on vacations, they were living really good lives and that's kind of what they were talking about as they went around the table. I took, oh, I forgot to tell you that I was invited to that meeting to take notes. I sat at a different table. I was not part of the conversation, but I was asked to take notes ‘cuz one of the things that Tony does really well is he documents everything and he goes back and he studies it. And so, taking notes was just a normal thing we did for everything.

So, I took the worst notes of my life that day because all I wanted to do was hear about what the heck are these guys doing? And in that moment, I realized, I am not free. I am not free. Every single day of my life I've had a boss from growing up with a really strict father to then getting into the corporate world and boss after boss after boss. And these guys were calling the shots and something in me speak to say, I want to do that. I want to call the shots. I don't even know. I had no idea what I would do, but I wanted out. And it wasn't like I wanted away from the Robins organization. I just wanted a way to do something new different, and on my own. So it was that meeting that sparked it like that and it was a year from that meeting that I actually took the leap.

Michael: Were you thinking about it, every day?

Amy: Every single day. And I had to be careful, and I teach my students this as well. I didn't wanna have one foot out and one foot in and do a terrible job and then leave the Robins organization and not have any respect for my coworkers or Tony or anything like that. So, what I did instead, instead of like being like, I don't wanna be here. I don't wanna be here anymore. I thought, how could I wasn't ready to leave. I have anything put together to leave and go out on my own and so what I did is I decided, can I change my job here to learn some skills that I don't have that could be really helpful when I eventually do leave, and because I had been with the business for a long time and had good standing there, I asked to move to the marketing department. Then I asked to work on our digital course launches], then I asked to work from home, and then I asked to go part, all of this happened over the year and it was so perfect cuz the business was transitioning at the time they were making huge changes. So, I just kept getting yes after yes, after yes. So I feel very fortunate, but my friend reminded me today about something else we were talking about, you never get what you don't ask for. So, I wasn't afraid to ask for it and that helped.

Kimmy Seltzer_ The Confidence Therapist and Expert Helping People Find Lasting Love and Connection

Michael: People don't want to hear it, but it's true. I didn't want to hear it either. These relationships don't work, it's their fault. This business I started doesn't work, it's my customer's fault. All like my health is bad, it's my genetic. Right. There's always an excuse to be made. And when I decided to step into and look, excuses are valid, let's call it what it isI'm not gonna take that away from people, they're valid, but at some point, you have to realize like it's you, like it is you. And that for me became really transformational and I understood something really, really deep one day as I was like thinking about and literally charting out the person, I want to be with top to bottom. I said to myself, be the person this person would be attracted to. And that became a really interesting cornerstone in my life ‘cuz it's like, people want, I don't believe in dating up or dating down. People are like, oh, they're outta my league. I'm like, no, no, they're not outta your league you just ain't in the ball game. Right. And so, it's like that's the thing I'm always thinking about is like, what does it actually take to be in the relationship that you want to be in? And it takes a year you, it takes you because this person, it's gonna take them and then you'll meet in the middle if the stars align and it's supposed to be but otherwise it's not. And I love Dan Savage tremendously and he always says every relationship you have is going to fail until it doesn't. And I think that that's a really interesting point, but I always want to add a little bit to that, it’s like but you will learn from that, you will grow from that. And so, I'm curious, as you work in this red dress moment, you're looking at your life, you're reflecting, you're like, I'm gonna do this external work, something about this feels valid and makes sense to me. I assume your confidence was low at the time, and so, I'm wondering what that journey was for you, because relationships, you know this in your field probably more than anything relationships destroy people. And so, I'm wondering, a – where you were and how you rebuilt your confidence. And then b – why do relationships destroy people's confidence?

Kimmy: Yeah. Ooh, wow. Those are big questions. How much time do we have? Like, I have so many stories I wanna tell.

Michael: As long as you need to answer the question.

Kimmy: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. Because when I look back on the life, I don't know if you find this, I always think in metaphors and movies, it was almost as if I was Dorothy, you know, hopping down the yellow brick road with my basket. And with each experience in each relationship, I would put a tool in my little basket and I'd keep skipping and I suppose we're all looking for oswell, you know, as well as there really is no oz. So, like, what is that really? But what we can do is look at where we are right now and what we want. And when I was skipping down my yellow brick road after I had the red dress moment and realizing I was really scared to wear that freaking dress, it was the domino effect. So, it started with just getting used to being seen, and then I had to learn how to put myself out there and talk to the aliens. I'm like, great. So now I'm getting the attention, I called you men aliens. I'm like, that's great, but now what the h*ll do I do with you? Like, I don't even know, so I'm like, you know, I couldn't talk to you, I didn't know how to flirt. So flirting is actually a big part of my business. I do flirt workshops. I believe that this is one of the first things that people need to be comfortable in. And for my journey, I realized that, I could talk to people, I could be friendly, but raising sexual attention and being like in my sexy confidence so that's another category of confidence by the way there are like different categories of confidence too, we can get into that. But that was crucial in terms of just that first stage of attraction like how am I supposed to get a date if I can't even be comfortable with my body and my sex appeal and all of that jazz, right?

And so, then I had to learn how to flirt and so, what did I do? I had to go practice it. I mean, it started out with my first friend, Laura. Laura, if you're out there. Hi, I miss you. She was another single mom who was like, willing and ready and able to go flirt with me. And I did not know what the heck I was doing and I knew I was in trouble when she rang the doorbell and she was just dropped, had gorgeous, she had long blonde hair and she had, you know, like her tight jeans on and nice shirt and I went to hug her and she smelled like vanilla and Iike glancing in the mirror, and I'm like, okay, I don't look like that. I went back to my black clothes. I forgot about my red dress, you know, and I did not smell like vanilla. I remember like running into the bathroom and putting like Fabrice on or something I'm like, okay, I gotta do something, I gotta look the part. And so, like a nerd, I literally was just like, following her around like a puppy dog and I remember, ‘cuz in California, there's a place like the Valley where it's more suburban and she drove from the dark suburbs into the sparkly lights of the city of Santa Monica, I'm like, there's life after dark. And so, we stop at this bar and this was lesson number one. I see this long line, I'm like, Laura, I literally cannot stand in that line. I'm too old for this, my babysitter's only here for a certain month, she's like, I'm like, what? She's like, just follow me. And so, she gets out of the car and she like, you know, does her little clank, clank, clank in her heels and she goes to the front of the line, she whispers something to the bouncer and we get whisked in. So, I'm like, okay, wow, I don't know and I still don't know what she said, but somehow, we're in the bar with a bunch of aliens and now I'm like, now so many aliens in one portal, what do I do? So, I took a lot of notes that night and one thing that happened is that we sat in the bar and she's like, watch this and she showed me the power of body language. So, I wasn't comfortable in my body, right? So, I had to get comfortable in the red dress, now I have to work on my body language. And she did something called the Three Second Rule. Do you know what that is? Have you ever heard of that?

Michael: No. Tell me.

Kimmy: Yeah. Is this a too long of a story? ‘Cause this is another pivotal moment, I'm telling you all these like little stories that happened. And so, there was this cute guy across the way and she did the three second rule where she looked at him and then she looked away and then she looked back, it was like 1, 2, 3, I didn't make this up by the way like this is out there and research, like you can like read about the three second rule. But I kid you not in 30 seconds, he was right there next to us, I'm like, how did you do that? You know, and so the big lesson in that moment was that there's more than the red dress, it's being comfortable in my skin, it's being comfortable in my body, it's being comfortable with men, really embracing that side of me. And I had to stay there for a while, I had to swim in it, you know, this wasn't like, this was new for me ‘cuz I didn't have a lot of dating experience either and I'm a single mom, you know. So again, me redefining myself that kind of reinvention was starting to happen. And then from there, of course I have a lot of other stories, but then, you know, going out and practicing flirting than I got more friends and I called them my sex and the city gals and we would go every single week and practice flirting in different venues until I got super comfortable with it and now, I teach it. Right?And so, when you talk about, you know, it's so true. You can fall victim to something or you can lean into it and it be your gift. And I almost fell victim to it, but I decided to, in the fork in the road pivot turn and go the other path. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about doing what I do. So, all of these stories, all of these experiences and practice kinda like opportunities is what led me here today.