Live with Intention | Heal and Thrive | with Sara Dean

Michael: Hey! What's up, Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today.  I'm very excited to be back with another episode with my guest and friend, Sarah Dean, who is the host of the Shameless Mom Academy podcast. What is up my friend? How are you today?

Sara: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here.

Michael: Yeah. I'm pumped to have you.

Sara: This is like a real treat to be in this fancy environment.

Michael: It's not that fancy.  It's literally room. Well, for me I was like, I want people to be able to come and sit down and have a real conversation and a space that feels comfortable.

 Sara: Thank you for that. I mean, that speaks to the kind of the preciousness that you hold for the conversations that you carry.

Michael: Yeah. Well, it's important, right? I think one part of this show is getting into the crux of who human is and the other part of it is like, I want to be comfortable cause I do this all day, so, let's call it what it is.

Sara: Make it a win-win for everyone.

Michael: What's one thing about your past about who you are that I need to know to understand who you are today?

Sara: So one thing that came up in my life just a couple years ago, but is connected to tiny little Sara from many, many years ago is I was diagnosed with PTSD.  And when I got that diagnosis, I was completely shocked because I didn't know that I did there was nothing in my life where I would've said, oh yeah, that trauma experience. So, it's been a really interesting journey over the last few years to recognize. How that shows up in my life in a lot of different ways that I couldn't really previously connect.

Michael: What was that?

Sara: So, my parents got divorced when I was four, and it was like totally amicable, easy, clean, and I should say easy, clean and air quotes like, as clean as a divorce can be. And so, I always felt grateful that my parents did this in a way that my sister and I didn't have to go through a custody battle, it was never really a big deal, but we didn't ever process that really quick immediate loss. And so when I got the diagnosis around PTSD, I thought,  oh, it's because my parents got divorced, which feels really weird because like what is that 50% of kids walking around or people walking around and then have that same trauma. So, I was like, that doesn't feel like the right thing but I mean, I don't know, maybe. And so in walking through this over the course of a few years and kind of what comes out on the back end of that for me is anxiety, like a heightened sense of anxiety that I can track throughout my entire life. In talking that through in therapy and then doing some hypno work with a dear friend of mine, we were able to figure out that the trauma for me wasn't the divorce. The trauma for me was after the fact around the time I was eight years old, I started having a form of panic attacks during the night where I would wake up every single night convinced that our house was being robbed, and I could hear someone in the house, I could hear, I always thought someone was trying to steal the kitchen table, and I would like hear the table like bumping against the floors, they were pulling it out, all of these images in my head and very true sensory experiences. And I would call for my mom, and my mom would come in and I would say, I just wanna go sleep in your room and she would always say, no, we're not gonna start that because if I'd let you do it once, you're gonna wanna do it every night, which she was right, I would've wanted to do it every night. But what that resulted in was me spending every night in my bedroom scared and alone for a large part of my childhood. And so, in talking this through, in hypnotherapy, the trauma for me was feeling really, really unsafe and not having someone hold, be able to hold me in those moments and instead saying, I'm going to leave you here for you to figure that out. And it seems like a weird thing to be like, I have PTSD because I got scared during the night, but because it happened over such a long period of time, my coping mechanism became, I have to figure things out on my own, other people are not going to show up for me, other people are not gonna protect me and the anxiety that came out on the backend has been a lot of defensiveness and like self-preservation and not being able to trust in a lot of relationships, and having a lot of anxious attachment and relationships because having a lot of uncertainty around are people safe and are they gonna see me and hold me when I really need them.

Michael: Yeah. Well, it's a domino effect, right? I had Dr. Gabor Maté on back in November, and he and I had a conversation which was exactly in the scope of this, where he said, if you go look at many Native American tribes at the turn of the century before a lot of colonization took place, the rearing of the children, if kid cried, they were picked up, they were cuddled, they were  given that thing. And it's universal in a lot of the world except for  America where for whatever reason here we have adopted this mentality that if a kid and a lot of Western states, I should add, that if you're a kid is crying, let them cry it out. And you're like, think about the rationale behind that and how like really actually f*cking insane it is. Because as an adult, when you are at your lowest and you're hurting and you're crying, what do you want more than to be in connection with a person who's just there for you for a moment.

Sara: And when adults show that kind of vulnerability, like know with our partners or our friends or whatever, we're not like, yeah, bye, you're gonna need to figure that out on your own.

Michael: Yeah. Well, and if you do, then you should get f*cking new friends. If  your wife is like, get away from me, you're crying, get another wife. She should listen to this podcast. How did that affect your relationship with your parents and specifically your mother?

 Sara: So, my relationship with my mom has always been really great, and so it's been an interesting realization that the person who did take care of me and provides security in all other aspects of my life, it feels like I'm calling her out to say like, you really didn't show up for me, you in these moments because she was a single mom very much hustling her ass off to do her best, and she did a really fantastic job. But she just didn't know that this, like what to do in this circumstance and situation. So, that relationship is still a really great relationship, I haven't really dug into this piece of it with her because I think that would traumatize her. She's 84, she doesn't do a lot on social media and listen to podcasts and things like that. So, I'm like, I don't know if she needs to know the full scope of it, she knows a little bit of it but I feel protective of her. I'm also looking at like, you know, that traumatization was probably a re-traumatization of a dad who walked down on his family two weeks before Christmas when his daughter was four years old without any notice, and then there was no processing around that.

So, there is this compounded effect of like, people not holding space for me, it's not just on my mom and my relationship with my dad is very different. He never showed up for me and held space for me when I needed him in vulnerable moments. He showed up when he could be really proud of me and when I did great things. So, those those two relationships look really, really different but it's interesting how, like, my mom didn't protect me in that way, but I wanna protect her from knowing that she didn't protect me in that way.

 Michael: Sure. Yeah. Well, and you know, also there are certain things I think about around those moments and experiences where, I mean, generally speaking, I don't have children I'm just gonna put my, if I had a kid hat on, like, you don't know you're f*cking your kid up.

Sara: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I have a 10-year-old and I'm like, oh, if he comes in my room in the middle of the night and he's like, mom, I'm scared. I'm like, come right here. I will hold you forever.

Michael: Which I might also be f*cking him up. There's something fascinating to me that people, for whatever reasons seem to think that they are going to guide their children perfectly and they come out unscathed. And I'm like, you're literally, my thought is like, do your best not to destroy them entirely so then I don't have to coach them.

Sara: Yes. I was having this conversation just last week with someone where we were talking about how I was actually interviewing someone for the shame, Shameless Mom Academy, and we were talking about how we have this like heightened sense of evolution when we get to a certain point in our lives and you're like, oh gosh, I've learned so much over the last 10 years or whatever. And so now that I know better, I can do better and blah, blah, blah and you look back at the things 10 years ago and you're like, oh, I'm so ashamed of that like I can't believe I didn't know these things or was messing it up so badly. Well, like me, the mom who's doing what I'm doing for my kid now I'm 47, he's 10, I feel really good about how I'm parenting him and I'm like, gosh, in 10 years I might feel totally different and be like, h*ly cow, I didn't know what I didn't know when I was 47 and he was 10 and now he's 20 and look what I've done so we're always all just doing the best we can with what we've gotten any given moment. But we're always thinking that we like got it all figured out.

 Michael: I don't think that often at all because I've just come to realize, like I have when I used to be very stubborn. So, I know who I am like, know thy myself is the most important thing in the journey. I know I'm stubborn. I know it's like in my f*cking bones, and I know that that is my greatest strength and my greatest weakness. And so, one of the things that I've had to do to reconcile that, that moves me forward as opposed to stopping me is just I'm like, I don't know anything. Put me in the room, please let me be the dumbest person in the room constantly. And that only came through this choice of the willingness, like, I'm going to go step into the unknown and find out who I am. And that moment that you shared seems like that might have been a part of your journey. What prompted that for you? Because I think a lot of people who are listening, they're like, yeah, well I'm in my forties and I have a family and like, it's not that bad which tends to be the thing, eh, it's not that bad so why am I gonna do something?

Sara: Why do I need to do in the inner work? So, I found myself a few years ago. I've had anxiety my whole life, but I didn't know that's what it was, I just thought that like, I'm kind of type A and I'm like, I'm just a control freak. And what happened over the course of time I started to recognize how unhealthy and unsustainable it was to wake up every single morning with like a huge ball of dread in my stomach. And I started talking about it, I started doing therapy, I went to a psychiatrist and I started, the therapist said like, what does this anxiety feel like for you? And I said, I wake up every morning and it's like there's this pit in my stomach and even on a day where there's things I'm really looking forward to where I know like, she's gonna be a great day, there's all these things to look forward to, there's this pit there that's like, okay, but like, what if this goes wrong or that goes wrong? Or what if you don't achieve in this way? Or what if you can't figure that thing out? And so, we spent a lot of time talking about like that knot and what does it take to unravel that knot and what would it be like to not wake up with that in the morning to wake up and be like, oh, I got this, it's fine. Or just to wake up and not have any thoughts about like, just to wake up and be like, I'm just gonna go brush my teeth, I'm like not be emotionally processing from the moment you wake up. And so it was really, I think knowing that I was waking up with that, I was carrying it with me all day. There were a lot of moments in my day where I would have this internal sense of overwhelm that felt sometimes, like my mind was moving at a pace that I couldn't control, but I was having to like live in reality, that moved much slower and it felt like this huge disconnect for like, I'm trying to keep up with my brain, but I can't and it just became absolutely exhausting and there's times when it's still exhausting and I take medication and do therapy and like do all this stuff. But it was really reaching out and being like,my brain is like, it's too much for me right now and getting the diagnosis of general anxiety disorder and PTSD and it helped tremendously in kind of getting to put some pieces together and being able to name like, oh, that's what I'm feeling and that's why I'm feeling it. Okay, now I can like neutralize it and move on.

Michael: Yeah. The naming it part is the game changer for me, you know, because in my teens and my twenties, I just assumed I was crazy. My mother crazy, my grandmother crazy, my stepfather crazy and I'm not using that word lightly, they were f*cking crazy. Bipolar manic, suicidal, narcissistic to, like textbook sh*t. Right. And I know those are buzzwords people throw around, but when I was a kid, we just called you crazy. And so I'm living this lifestyle where it's like doing gnarly sh*t where I'm doing stuff where I'm like, this is so insane like, I don't even know, ‘cuz this thing in my brain is like, this is normal, the same experience that you're having.

Sara: Yeah. And it is really interesting how could you identify that? Like it felt normal to you, but like, it wasn’t like everyone else's.

Michael: I'm the one having the interview right now.

Sara: I know. Lemme take over the interview.

Michael: But here's my thought on it. Like, I distinctly remember having these moments of being out of control and recognizing I was out of control, but the chaos felt so good. This is the thing people don't see which is actually where I was gonna lead into with anxiety. I think the people, most people, they get stuck in the rumination of the disaster i.e., someone's breaking the house, stealing the kitchen table, the place is burning down. So, most people, they go into hyperactivity to turn that off, is that what you did?

Sara: Yes, but all internally. Also, like my rumination I know is not normal compared to the people that I spend time with and so, it's like this rumination that is just quietly happening where I'm like, if anyone's sitting around me right now, knew all the things that I was thinking at one time. And so, it's that high level or like hyperawareness that I know that I'm like taking things in or seeing things, feeling things on a different scale than other people and you were like, I'm gonna act on these things and it sounds like, be big and bold I was like, I'm just gonna internalize this and feel like there's a lot happening inside, but not process it with anyone or not tell anyone that I'm feeling like it's too much and that's the exhausting part was like having to carry it but then look, quote unquote very normal on the outside. Look like a just high achiever, successful person, driven person, ambitious person without acknowledging that like there's kind of constant panic in the background.

Michael: What did not acknowledging it do for you? Let me ask the question this way because there's something about high achievers when we just put it to the side, we go, it's like that meme, everything's on fire and it's like the little cat and he's like, it's fine, is that what it was for you?

Sara: I think the not acknowledging it piece over time just became mentally extremely grueling and to the point where like it felt like if you're going through so let's say you're going through a divorce and so you tell your friends like, oh, as it turns out, we're separating and people are kind of along the ride with you, and they kind of have a sense of what's going on. It felt like I had gotten so far down this road of like internal panic and anxiety there never felt like it was the right time to like let someone in because the train was like, kind of already saw off the rails to be like, Hey, so by the way, I just wanted to let you know for like, you know, 30 some years I've had really bad anxiety and it's become really crippling like, it just never felt like there was a window to bring people in so, it felt increasingly isolating, I think. And it also felt, started to feel really incongruent with like, who I was and the work that I was doing where, like the stuff I talk about on the podcast around, just nurture yourself and show up for yourself, and like kind of all these things started to feel like platitudes, while I'm doing those things and encouraging people to live big, bold, brave lives, I'm doing it in a constant state of panic in the background.

Michael:  But that's your norm.

Sara: It's totally my norm.

Michael: This is the thing that people don't always process, it's like, that is what you know, and the unknown of that is arguably more scary than the known.

Sara: Yeah. Can I tell you what my therapist told me to do that make made me so mad?

Michael: Yeah, of course.

Sara: There's two things. So, the first thing she's told me on our first session, she's like, when you're feeling panicky or when you're feeling a lot of anxiety, she's like, I just want you to do some mindfulness activities. And before she even finished saying mindfulness activities, I was like rolling my eyes like, oh my God, I'm not doing mindfulness activities. And then she told me the first activity, and again, cause I'm like, I work in this space, I don't need mindfulness activities. the first. I'm like, I actually could give you some tips how about that. So she was like, next time you're feeling anxiety, I just want you to look around and notice what you see, notice what you smell, go through all your senses, notice all the things around you and identify like, I am safe. I can see this, I can touch this, I can smell this, all this. And I was like, yeah, that's ridiculous. So, I was like mad about that ‘cause I was like, that's not an actual tool. And then the next session she told me that in the morning she's like, I think that it would really help you if you spent like 30 minutes first thing in the morning just sitting down with your tea or coffee and just sitting in silence and thinking, and I was like, oh my God. Do not tell an anxious person to just sit there and do nothing like I could that just sent me into like a state of terror. So, I was like, okay, I will give you two minutes, I will spend two minutes max, I'm not gonna sit down, I'm gonna stand in my kitchen, look out my window, take like three sips of coffee and like 3D breaths and call it good. And so that's what I started doing and it worked. And I was like, damn that this mindfulness stuff works. I mean, it has been an interesting process of learning how my brain works differently and like learning some of the tools that I thought were super eye roll kind of tools that do help a bit but also being super resistant and thinking that a lot of the, kind of the stuff that should work for an anxious brain would actually work for my anxious brain.

Michael: Yeah. I think about this frequently. We are as individuals, both the cause and the solution to all of our problems. And I remember because same, I mean, I'm contrarian by nature, I mean, I pushed against the grain my entire childhood always in trouble for being like, don't tell me what to do that's that stubbornness element. But it's paid massive dividends in my life in a positive way once I learned how to control it. And one of my, actually the best therapists, sorry to all you, other people who weren't the best, the best therapist I ever worked with, he actually literally said, ‘cuz I was having f*cking five panic attacks a day. At the height of the chaos of my life in my late twenties, into my early, early thirties, like 30, 31 was having like four or five panic attacks a day, like crippling. And he said to me, you are worried about things that haven't happened yet. And I'm like, okay, so what? Like I've only ever worried about things that haven't happened yet because I grew up in f*cking h*ll. So I don't know whatever it is that you're talking about on this other side. And he goes, if you're panic, very similarly, he goes, just ask yourself if you're in a safe environment just look around. Are you safe? The answer is yes. Then you have to realize that now it's about controlling the response. And that became a game changer for me because the hard part about being a human being is we want to think that we're right even when we're seeking help. It's like, but you're not because if you knew what the fuck to do, you wouldn't be in this room right now. So, how do you reconcile that?

 Sara: Oh, are you asking me that?

Michael:  I'm literally asking, I want that to be a rhetorical question because here's the reality you said, and then I figured, and then it worked. Okay. Now it's on you.

Sara: Right. So, I'm gonna back up a second because you just gave a really great example. So, you said that you were very committed to worrying about things that hadn't happened yet. One of the things I used to do in the middle of the night, and I had like a checklist of like things to do when I was laying in the bed, terrified of the burglars was, think of all the things I should worry about because I very much thought if I worried about something, it wouldn't actually happen. And so, then I was like, okay, so that means you have to think of all the bad things that could possibly happen in your whole entire life. And then I was eight, so I'm like lying in bed and I'm thinking, okay, like your house might burn down sometime, someone might come in and murder you. I was very terrified of getting murdered by lethal injection and I would imagine a really long needle going into my brain, like the things that I would think, like, make sure you think of that.

Michael: Were you watching horror movies as a kid?

Sara: No, I've never watched horror movies in my life because I know that I can think of them already in my head. So, I would lay in bed thinking of these things to like, convince myself that I should not ever feel safe because all these really bad things would happen. So, what I have to do now is reconcile that I have to retrain my brain from a decade of conditioning from age like eight to 43 around the fact that you don't need to worry about what might happen that hasn't happened yet, that shows no indication of actually happening, and instead recognize where have you actually proven that you can get through big things, hard things, scary things. And also like where those big things, hard things, scary things turn out really amazing.

And so, one of the things I did when I was 42, 5 years ago, I started, I learned how to ski and for someone who likes a lot of control, learning how to ski at age 42 is like the biggest disaster of a near death experience I could possibly imagine. But it was really showing up over and over and over and being like, you're gonna do this and you're gonna be afraid that you're gonna die every single time, and you're gonna hope that there's a snowstorm that cancels lessons every single time. And I did that like three years in a row every single Saturday during ski season. I went up on the mountain and was like, oh my God, I just wanna die. I just wanna die. I just wanna die. And, but it was like this exposure therapy to remind myself that, you can just show up and you can do one little thing at a time and prove that you're safe in a moment and you only have to go from like point A to point B on the easiest run and it's been a lot of retraining my brain to switch, like the pathways I think to just to recognize what is possible and recognize where I have power and where I've always had power, and where I've proven that I've had power repeatedly over the course of my life. Instead of resorting to that like, oh my God, this could go wrong and that could go wrong because like we know the world is gonna go wrong all the time.

Michael: Yeah. Well, and it is, and it's like, you know what I think about a lot is as I've gotten to the place where, I seek peace now, like in like a literal way where I'm like, how do I eliminate all the things for my life that I do ruminate about? That I catastrophize? Even like, I mean from relationships to friendships and dating to like time, time has always been my biggest thing where it causes the most anxiety in my life. And so, I always think to myself, knowing that time as a construct, like just removing it and like I realize there are certain people were like, if you're four minutes late, they're gonna lose their sh*t. Right. I used to be that guy. And now I'm just like, what? It doesn't even matter. I mean, it does matter tremendously, it's the one resource we can't get back. But letting it be the deciding factor in your mental wellbeing like it doesn't actually make sense. Especially when you kind of facilitate in like, oh, you're gonna die. And so, if I'm all because like that, to me, that's where I always used to be and that rumination was death. Like in a very, maybe not lethal injection into the brain, but like I had these about car crashes and fires and always painful just the worst deaths. And I was just like, this is stupid. And it came in that space of looking at the environmental supports and just being like, you are safe, but that thing about skiing and like wishing and hoping that these moments would happen people do that all the time. And what's great about it, it becomes an excuse. Right? You're like, oh, I kind of figured this thing might happen today, so I'm not gonna bother. Right. And then you're recognizing and realizing like, actually you're holding yourself back. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but what was the biggest realization you had about this anxiety? What really has become the most profound life-changing aspect of the journey for you?

 Sara: I think it's been probably that I'm really good at making up stories in my head and that a lot of the stories are untrue. And so, whether it's worrying about something that might happen that's not ever gonna happen or I mentioned anxious attachment before so, the other thing that I'm really good at, I'm curious if you're good about the good at this as well, is, if someone is a perfect example would be, you send a text to someone and they don't reply, or like the three dots pop up and then they go away and you immediately like, go into this big story about, oh, the thing that I said they're mad about, or they took it the wrong way, or I should explain myself. And so, for me, I think the biggest lesson has been, there's all sorts of stories in my head and my default is to go to stories that are incorrect. And so, learning to look at what all the other possible stories are, what are the other things? And Glennon Doyle and one of her books talked about what is true and beautiful and like pausing to be like, what else is true and beautiful in this moment? Like, you're making up this whole story that is a catastrophe and a disaster, and all the things that could go wrong. There's a whole bunch of other truths here that are very possible. And so, what are those things and how will you save space for those, honor those so that you can actually move forward.

Michael: Yeah. When I see the three dots, I'm just like, I think they probably just died.  This is why they haven't replied.  They felt they have drowned in the bathtub.

Sara: Like, oh, see, I think they're so mad at me. Oh my gosh, how did I offend them?

 Michael: You know, here's what I've discovered. Like I have pissed off people so many times in my life, it's just like, okay, I get it. To me, I look at that and I go, right, if I piss people off, they get mad at me. Cool. Now I can learn something about how we communicate together. And of also, this is probably the most important, I do not talk about important sh*t and text ever like voice note. Sure. And even that's probably not good enough like we need to get on a phone call. If we're having problems as friends and a relationship, ‘cause I f*cked a relationship, but because we text each other about everything. Part of that was like, I do think you have to honor your communication and the way that you communicate like I'm a writer first, so I do find that to be my but I just started writing everything and if it's like in my head, I'm like in the chaos of it. I'll just write it down. I'll go to sleep and if I feel the same way the next day it's like I have to get on a call because it used to be you f*cking hate me because I did this thing. And actually, it's not the thing that you're upset about, but I think it is. And so now I'm gonna f*cking counter like de destroy this relationship by any means necessary ‘cuz then that way you'll love me. It's great.

 Sara: Yes, totally. I found that like I have to make myself pause because I'm so reactive. And so, if I make an assumption about something, I have a very hard time not immediately doing something about it. And so, part of my anxiety is like having a very quick reaction and also needing to immediately fix something. So, if I do worry that I've said or done something wrong and that someone's mad about something, I want to fix it like in the moment immediately. And one of the things I've had to let go of is not doing that in the moment and recognizing that there's always a better outcome when you give it, when you pause first. And I've made myself collect evidence around this to notice like, okay, this person sent me this text, it sounds like they're dissatisfied with something. I'm gonna give myself two hours minimum before I respond to think through and process.

Michael: Now you're dots.

Sara: Not gonna look at the three dots. I'm not gonna provide the three dots. And I'm gonna let myself process what might be happening here instead of jump leaping to my panic story. And usually by the end of two hours, and sometimes if it's more than that, but I can see, oh, now that I think about it, like that person had that other really stressful thing this morning, I bet like that's part of what was tied up in their response. Or, oh, now you know, today was a hard day. Like, I can think how I'm jumping to conclusions that really center myself around something that might not have anything to do with me, or making up stories in my head. And in pushing that pause, what I've been able to find is that I respond very differently than I would've if I had responded immediately, and that the outcomes are usually so mutually beneficial. And so, whether this is like in a friendship, whether it's in something related to my work, whether it's in something that I'm doing, I am the co-chair of the parent association at my son's school. So, there's stuff that comes up with that where I'm like wanting to be on it, anytime I let something breathe, I have a better response, the other person feel seen, I feel seen, and then like everybody wins instead of me going into panic, which either puts me or the other person on the defense and then all of a sudden you have this like really big situation that never needed to be a big situation.

Michael: Yeah, I think about this on the daily, the piece is in the pause like that just sits in my brain because growing up, having to kind of figure out to navigate the world, navigate relationships, understand dynamics that you learn from parents and teachers and television and film, everything's reactive all the time. And it's like moving at the speed of light and you know, the craziest events of your life, they need time. You have to sit in that for a minute. The pain, the hurt, the shame, the guilt but you know, often it's those very things that keep us crippled too. So, there's the sitting in it and then there's like the living in it.

Sara: Yes. And then, yeah, like don't sit in it for too long. There is a difference between like, sitting in it intentionally for a moment, but not sitting in it, not sitting in the ship for forever.

Michael:  Yeah, Simon Sinek talks about this concept of like just sitting in the mud like being in it and sometimes just being in it and supporting hearing someone, having them be present with you in this moment and then being able to pull yourself out. And I think that's the most difficult aspect of all of this because anxiety, depression, stress, guilt, shame, like they almost become per what you were talking about, like this is my normal, this is my normal I feel this all the time. How do you handle it when it's like you're in it for two days and you don't even realize it and then you realize it, now what do you do?

 Sara: That's a great question. And as you were talking, I was thinking one of the things that I've really worked on doing, and some days I'm better than others, is changing the baseline. And so, like I mentioned, the baseline before was like, wake up every morning with this like, big knot of dread and like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna get through this day? And there's all these things and what if I can't do them, and what if I don't meet expectations? And so, changing the baseline and catching myself so when I do wake up with that and like today's a great example, I woke up and I was like, okay, I have to get on a flight, we're gonna come do these two interviews, which is like new and different, exciting, but just new and different. And then going to the retreat, I have to do some stuff tonight with related to that. And coming off of a big day yesterday and so I woke up and I was like, okay, like I gotta do this and that and the other thing and then changing the baseline to be like, hold on, wait, you're going to do the work that you love the most and you get to go see this friend that you met at a conference a few months ago who like, it's gonna be super fun to go to their fancy podcast studio. And then I'm gonna see other colleagues’ tonight and just changing that baseline to recognize, wait, you're about to go do really cool things, you're about to go have fun, you're about to go, like, sit in your gifts and get to like, really receive the fruits of the work that you have been doing for the last, personally and professionally, the work that you've been doing for the last number of years.

So, just take a breath, take a beat, and then like, now let's starts your day. And it was my two minutes over coffee this morning that I was able to really recognize like instead of immediately going into the place of do this, do this, do this before you, you know, as you prepare for the day, instead like, oh my gosh, these are the things I get to do today and it's resetting that baseline. So then when I go into a season, which happens, my work right now is really compartmentalized, which is so exciting, but also can be really overwhelming ‘cause I'm putting, on some days I'm like going into a corporation and doing a training on resiliency and having to put on like corporate Sara hat and then other days I'm doing my mom working with moms on the podcast. And those can feel really different at times. And so, when I get into a season where I'm changing hats a lot which can sometimes be the course of a few weeks where I'm jumping around quite a bit and then adding co-chairing stuff at my son's school. I can get into those moments where the panic starts to show up and where I feel for me, it gets to this feeling, and I say this to my husband all the time and then wanna retract it where I say I just want it to be over with like, I just wanna get through the next couple weeks and like, then I can exhale or then like I'll be more relaxed or then it'll quote unquote go back to normal. And I'm really, again, working on that resetting that baseline, that sitting in the mud is like, well, yeah, it's muddy cause it feels like a lot right now. But also like, this is everything you've been trying to make happen for the last seven years of your career. So, let's be excited about it and then also trust that, this is what you've been preparing for and these are the things that you were meant to do, and you've proven yourself over and over again in all these capacities that you have to show up in then in the next couple weeks already. So just, you know, exhale a little bit. It's a lot of self, I mean, it's using the skills that like we tell other people to use on ourselves, which it's a gift and also, it's so maddening. 

Michael: Yeah. Well, it is because like, here's the thing that, like I've discovered now doing this for as long as I have Monday, I was like, f*ck entrepreneurship, f*ck this podcast the same, I don't wanna do this. Bye forever. And look, and truth be told, I've always said if I wake up one morning and I do not want to do Think Unbroken, I will close it all down. Bye. I don't care if it's seven years, 17 years, 70 years because it's about me feeling fulfilled, helping people, guiding them, showing up, living in authenticity and feeling fulfilled. And so, when I wake up on a day like that, it is about the baseline, it's me going, okay, assistant clear, the whole calendar, I'm going to the beach, I don't care because we have to remember, and I think this applies to everyone and I know it's not always that easy and we are fortunate ‘cuz we put ourselves in a position to be fortunate. But I mean, even when I worked in corporate, like I was terrified to take time off and to rechange the base or change the baseline and to put myself first. And I think that most people the reason we're so anxious is because we don't have a f*cking five seconds of free time. And it's like, give yourself those five seconds of free time. Give yourself that space to recalibrate, to get back into your essence, to be in your physical body not dissociated, not consumed with media and television bullsh*t on Instagram, but to just sit down for 30 minutes and drink the coffee and not be worrying about, all the things.

Sara: Right. I just recorded an episode yesterday on how to recover from Shining Extra Bright, and what I meant by that was like when you go through these moments where you have to really show up or life is really intense or you have to like live in, whether it's in a position of visibility or a position of vulnerability, how do you then conscientiously give yourself space to recover from that on the other end of it? Because if you're just going in the last few years, have made us do this. And being a parent can make you do this. And most careers can make you do this where you're just jumping from one big thing to the next and having to show up in these big hard ways without any sort of pause in between that can create a lot of anxiety, even if you are not already prone to anxiety. But if you are prone to anxiety, then you need to be extra intentional around how do you like show up for the thing where you're really shiny and doing hard work or even really great work that maybe doesn't feel hard, but it's just hyper visibility. And then how do you, on the back end of that, recognize like, okay, and now I need to de stimulate a little bit like now I need to have a moment to exhale. Now I need to have a moment where my brain is not going. I found myself. Folding laundry last weekend, which is like Ellie's favorite task, but loving it because I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I just don't have to think about anything for the first time in two weeks right now. And then I was like, oh my gosh, you need more mental breaks like laundry should not be your respite. And so this clearly means that you have been shining really bright, having to show up in big ways and not having enough time so like I love your example of the beach, knowing that that's your thing. For me it's walking or running and so recognizing like I haven't been doing a good enough job of getting myself out the door to just be in my thoughts versus showing up and being of service to other people over the last few weeks, and I'm feeling that now.

Michael: Yeah. And for me, also, like I try to schedule that stuff in like at physical activity, whether I'm doing martial arts or I'm at the gym like having that. And when I'm there, one of the things I started doing is just like only listening to music, no podcasts, no personal development. You remember back in the day when podcasts didn't exist, you would listen to f*cking music at the gym and I was like, I have to bring this back into my life. Right. Because I realized I consume podcasts, and I say this all the time, sorry guys, I consume podcasts the way that people watch television shows, so, it's like all I do, all of them, except for Whitney Cummings which is a comedy podcast, which I absolutely love.

Sara: So, I go through phases, definitely go through educational phases and podcasting. But because of that hyper consumption and learning and needing to step away from that, I also have very specific things that I listen to in. Sometimes it's uncertain times of life or certain seasons, or sometimes it's related to what's happening in the world. So like right now I'm listening just to all the random interviews about season four love is blind and it is like so mindless and so fantastic. So, it's been like my respite the last few weeks. I mean, when I was folding laundry the other day, it was like listening to a Love is Blind interview with a person from the show and just letting that be the thing that like lets my mind go. So, whether I mean, music would be similar where you can just like let your mind go and you're not having to sit and process, I think that listening to someone else's conversation can still be consuming in a different way. I would agree with you that music, I think actually lets you process things which can help you get from point A to point B. I think that can be very therapeutic. My love as blind podcasts are not therapeutics., they're greatest as they are.

Michael: If you're like, my relationship isn't this bad. This has been awesome, I feel like we just barely touched the surface, we probably need four hours, this is what happens when you put podcasters together. But that said, before I ask you my last question, tell everybody where they can find you and learn more?

Sara: So, people can find me on wherever you listen to podcasts, my show is The Shameless Mom Academy, I'm at shamelessmom.com and then all my speaking stuff is at saradean.com

Michael: Awesome.  And of course, we'll put the links in the show notes for the audience. Guys, go over to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com look up Sara Dean and we'll have all those links and more for you there. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Sara: So for me, being unbroken means taking all of the imperfect little pieces, some of which have been shattered maybe multiple times, and cobbling them together into something that still has a lot of strength and power, but is still somewhat is it malleable the word like can still be shifted and reorganized as needed to be adaptable and nimble.

Michael: I love that. It's so true. I resonate with that a lot actually.

Sara: I hope not everyone else said that same answer.

Michael: No. Well, you know, we've had a lot of answers.

Sara: So, I'm like, wait, does everyone say that?

Michael: One is uniquely yours. Thank you for being here, my friend.

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