Practical Tools to End Suffering and Create Momentum with Jordan Harbinger

Michael: Hey! What's up, Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well, wherever you are in the world today. Super excited for today, especially if my guests Jordan Harbinger, who is a former lawyer turned podcaster, who's had a hell of an adventure leading up to today. Jordan, my friend, thank you so much for being here. What is going on in your world today, my friend?

Jordan: Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it. You know, I'm just at home with the family. Got one kid, got another kid on the way, it's actually a good time to have kids because you're already at home, stuck. A lot of the time, a lot of us, and if you have one little kid, you can't be like, you know what? I'm just going to take risks, right? I'm vaccinated or whatever, you have to be really careful. So now, it's a great time to have a second kid, because we're stuck here already, you know, got to be careful. So, just add to the Brood, man, that's how we doing.

Michael: Congratulations, brother, it's amazing! You know, I think that for people who don't know you, the quick bio is, you kind of had some major ventures between not being kidnapped, but traveling the world learning, multiple languages, putting yourself in this position where you turn networking into this concept that is about so much more than, here's a business card, here's this, here's that, but there are depths and levels to your story from these experiences as opening the little box, when you're the glue little green boxes when you're a kid looking inside, the wiring of Telecom. And now, today, being this incredible leader, and dare I say, oh! gee and the podcast space. One of the things I think about in this process of self-discovery especially for me as being an introvert, being one of the most difficult things that I've had to do, because I always feel like I'm on the verge of terror, right? When it comes to looking at, man, people are going to judge me, they're going to shame me, they're not going to like me and still pushing through that and I feel like, dude, like many people, may know you've done that so many times again, and again, in your life. What is it about you if you're able to name it or point to it, that's allowed you to really tap into who it is that you are?

Jordan: Yeah! It's been I think what's ironic about this question is a lot of people will say like; Oh! What allows you to tap in to find out who you are? A lot of my traveling and getting into different sorts of Mischief is all about been trying to find who that person even is, right? It's like, I'm going to be a rebel and do this, you know, when you're a teenager, I'm going to be a rebel and do that, I'm going to go on an exchange and leave my high school and go to another country and see if I can find myself, which is really funny because people always go to places where they're trying to find themselves and they like can't even read the menu at a restaurant like, you know, try finding yourself in a place where you literally can read road signs, you're in better luck. So a lot of people will go and test themselves and they try and find all these different adventures in life, and then it becomes kind of escapism after a while like; Oh! College is hard. Why don't I study abroad? Well, that was great. Oh, I can keep doing it. You know, that kind of thing. So I did that for a long time and after a while, I realized I had a whole different set of experiences and the experiences were real, of course, what makes us who we are in many ways, and it was fascinating for me to figure this out over time because when I grew up, I was really shy and I was, I had like and I guess now they would probably say, oh, he's got social anxiety as a kid, I don't have it anymore but now looking back, I kind programmed myself with all that stuff or got programmed by it, you know, just by going to school and being in this unnatural environment that didn't suit the way that I learned and getting yelled at by teachers for not paying attention, which is funny because like fast forward to my college career and I went to one of the best law schools in the United States.

So I clearly wasn't like a kid who couldn't learn, I just didn't memorize and also my language teachers, right? They were like, oh, you're not good at learning languages and now I'm like, well, that's funny because I speak five and you speak two. It's just that you're having kids, memorize a table of verbs in French, which is how 0 people learn to speak new languages, nobody memorized my kids, too. Who knows how to talk? I don't go. Well, did you memorize this verb table of the verb to be with all the exceptions? That's never going to happen. He doesn't need to do that, because that's not how we learn languages.

So, I had this sort of like identity crisis, as a kid that I took with that, most of us will take with us into adulthood where we go. Okay. I'm not a good fit for this because reasons and the reasons are all like reasons that school wasn't good for you, or reasons that your first job wasn't good for you, or your first relationship didn't work out and you're like, oh! no, this is an indelible part of my identity and it's because that was your first experience in that genre, right? Was the first language you try to learn; it was the first relationship you had with somebody else; it was the first job that you had with a real boss at a real company that wasn't like your parents or your friend’s parents or cutting Lawns, right? And then you go through that and you realize that you created like you carve that into yourself in your personality through that experience, but you can also go remake new experiences that teach you new things and this sounds, so blatantly obvious but most of us I find don't do that. You know, I know tons of adults and I'm sure you do as well as, as a coach who says things like, well, I'm not good at and it's like this broad category of things here, you literally it's impossible for you to know that. It's impossible for you to know that you're not good at languages because you took French and Spanish in high school, you're not good at learning languages in high school when you are of high school age in the 90s or whatever that was like, that's the only part of that, that's true.

So our brains are always trying to sort of extrapolating these truths out of we're trying to make patterns and meaning out of things that just aren't there. And I went through a lot of experiences early in life, traveling languages, jobs, that showed me that, wait a minute people can and do change and it happens pretty quick. You know, it happens quicker than you'd think and sometimes faster than you'd like, depending on what you're changing and but that turned out to be intensely liberating and now, I don't accept sort of any rigid structure of identity like, oh, you're this way, well, I mean, I am now but look how I was 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, the change it's like night and day. You know, kids who I grew up with her like you're like a totally different person now, man, what happened?

Michael: Yeah, and I think you should be. One of my favorite quotes of all time that I'll paraphrase from Jay-Z is people around you saying that you changed.

Well, I didn't do all this work to stay the same, and I think out that all the time and this should be this evolution, right? You don't want to max out, you want to have a growth mindset, words that we know have thankfully, due to people like Carol Dweck and yourself and Tom bill.

One of the things I'm really curious about I heard you say this, that let me paraphrase this the right way. I heard you say that our emotional responses are the opposite of logic and it's like throwing a book against the wall and this idea to me was really fascinating and you were talking about how we discover and analyze who we are but we still have that emotional stimulus to deal with in discovering that. Can you talk about that a little bit more in-depth than what that means?

Jordan: Yeah. I mean what I probably meant because context is everything and my memory sucks, that's why I am also tired. So I have these sunken holes for eyes because I have one kid and he's two years old and we never sleep anymore but what I probably meant by that was, a lot of times our emotions really do often will mislead us or they will have an emotional level. Here's an example, this is illustrated perfectly. My wife and I were talking about something. She was pushing my buttons because it was four o'clock in the morning and she couldn't sleep in our kid was really upset and screaming and crying and I go. I have this thing that I want to say and I should definitely not say this right now. I'm not going to say this right now is a terrible idea, it's just going to make her really angry and then I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do it, and then I was like, oh, that was so dumb. Why did I do that? The reason is emotions, right? Like you're in the moment, you're your emotions are telling you, one thing, it is always the opposite of logic.

There's a part of me, that thinks part of growing up, or being like a quote-unquote, an adult is being able to control those things but every Friday we have advice shows on the Jordan Harbinger show, it's called feedback Friday, and every Friday, there's something in there, that's like adults, doing the same thing that causes tons of problems in our lives. So I don't remember what your original question was again, sunken holes for eyes your eyes.

Michael: It's just about evaluating the emotional responses that we have to stimulus.

Jordan: So what we need to do is not just try to control our emotions. I knew I was going somewhere with that. We're not just trying to control enforce our emotions to either not exist or choke them down. What we want to do is look at why we feel a certain way and there's much better insight there and I'm no psychologist, I'm not an academic who studies these types of things that are better left to sort of like, Carol Dweck, like could you mentioned, and those types of folks. I find personally that when I examine, why I feel a certain way emotionally, I can unpack it. One that takes the power out of the emotion if I say, I'm so angry at this person right now, it's like, well why? Okay, well part of it, it's like 10% is like jealousy or envy? But 90% is that was a really crappy thing to do. Well, why was it a crappy thing to do? Why do I feel that way? Well, because I've done so much for them. Okay. So what lesson are you going to take from this do less for people? Obviously, you're not taking that lesson.

So the lesson is, some people do things that are against your interest and they shouldn't and that's going to make you mad, and there's probably nothing you can do about that. So, should I feel this way again, logically? No, will it happen again that I feel that way? Probably, but when it does I can go; You know what?

This is one of those things that's going to make me angry, but I don't really don't need to do all on it because the reason I feel this way is this, this and this, and the solution is either non-existent or its to not let it waste anymore of my emotional and mental bandwidth than it already is, and then I'm kind of, like, done with it. You know, it doesn't mean I forgive the person or I like them, or I'm going to forget about it, but it means, like, maybe I won't lose three, it's a sleepover, somebody's screwing me over on a barter or trade or a promo or across whatever because I'm not going to change my course of action, I'm not going to write 16-page contracts with everybody, I do a deal with online, I trust most people by default, which is a good way to live your life generally. If I let them change that about me, well, then they've really screwed me up. So why don't I just not worry about this crap anymore? So there's a lot of data in decoding, your emotional response, the other day is well, I was a little annoyed at my son, who's 26 months old. How annoyed can you get it to somebody? And it's like okay, he was being bad and trying to get my attention in a bad way by getting photographs that I'm scanning that are from my childhood and like crumpling them up and I'm like, no, those are replaceable. But what is he really doing? I'm angry because those are valuable to me, but what's more valuable to me, the relationship I have with my son, right? Of course!

So do I want to be trading one thing for the other now? So I start thinking about like, am okay hierarchy of things in life that are important, relationship with him, teaching him ways to be, why is he doing this thing that he's doing and sort of getting data out of his emotions because he's not gonna be able to do it himself or getting data out of other people's emotions, the more you can decode emotions, the first thing it does is take the power out of them. Like I said, but there's just so much good info in there, like, oh my son needs more attention from me. Maybe I need to make sure that I'm more obviously paying attention to him in these moments when he's home after school like he wants to get rid of the photos because he's pissed that I'm looking and sorting photos. Probably I'm reading a two-year-olds mind, right? But like, that's what I assume is going on.

He's not mad at the photos, he doesn't think crumbling them up to his fun maybe a little bit but what he really wants is for me to stop looking at the effing photos and pay attention to him, and I'm like okay. The reason this is making me mad is that I want to be doing something else but really I'm giving this other thing that's not even that important precedence over the thing that's like the most important thing in my life. Gotta stop doing that, you get data like that from decoding emotions and it's data that you can probably get anywhere else.

Michael: Yeah, that's super powerful. And I think part of it also is perspective and I've heard you say that perspective is a cure-all for anxiety because, on a long enough timeline, you're asking yourself if this is actually going to matter, and if you're doing that, are you measuring progress against day-to-day organs, the long term, you know, with this and especially scenarios like this now, newly happening in your life. What kind of role does perspective play for you today?

Jordan: Tons, man. I know exactly where you're going with this. So this is a combination of sort of two ideas. One, you're thinking about sort of the action and suffering, we can get to that in a second but the other idea on this is zoom out far enough on the timeline and like none of this crap matters, you know what I'm saying, so like okay, kid crumples up photos, zoom out on a timeline, we don't know how far could be two minutes where I just go, I'll straighten them out and then when I scan them, it's a photo of a pyramid and a camel, I don't even care about this, right? Like those are that's the timeline for that but in other timelines are really intense like your business got torpedoed and you lost your job, your wife lost her job and now you're starting over and you're going to lose your house. Well, that's not okay, and next week it's not going to be okay and next month, it's probably not going to be okay next year, will it be okay? Maybe? What about a couple of years from now, even if it's not completely, okay, it's certainly going to be better than it is right now in the moment when you're dealing with that. So I try to sort of zoom out far enough on the timeline mentally and realize okay, five years ago, I went through this thing and I thought I would like, never get over that. And now I'm mostly or completely over it, all right!

So let me jump ahead in the timeline and realize I'm not over it now because I'm in the thick of it, but eventually I will be over it which means I can almost act accordingly, right? Like, oh my God! I lost a million dollars on this stupid thing, and now I'm going to lose my retirement, I have to retire five years later, that's not good but you're going to survive, it's going to be fine, you're probably gonna be able to make a lot of it back, it's probably not as bad as you think, you've been through similar situations before that all makes you realize that you are, it's kind of like the everything is going to be okay. It's not always going to be the way that you want it to be but zooming out that far on the timeline is help me with so many stressful situations. If I get screwed over by somebody or if I hit a business hurdle, I just looking to go. All right! I've gone through like, three, four, five of these in my past. I'm 41. There's going to be more. They always suck but it's always completely fine. Now, there are some events that are not going to work out, like if you lose a child, you're always going to miss that child, but the pain won't be as acute as it is at the moment. You know, if something really horrible happens, you lose someone dear to you, it that's always going to change things, the pain is always more acute at the moment. So realizing that you can get through things, sounds simple, but it really you really do have to focus on that timeline because otherwise, it's really easy for your adrenal system to snap you back into fight or flight, pay attention to every second of his pain, kind of situation. And what you're trying to do is say, okay, I'm going to plan this out. You're almost snapping into a logical mode, you're not trying to withhold your emotions or bury them, you can deal with them, I deal with ideally with a therapist, if it's bad enough as you need to but you also need to like stop, knocking and waking up at 3 a.m. with when a cold sweat because you have made a bad investment or because somebody stole something from you. You know what I mean, that's not helping anyone.

Michael: Yeah, that's super powerful. And I've had this notion recently about this idea of time is now. I was at a restaurant and you put your name, you put the time and I just started writing. Now I have no idea why other than I was thinking like, why the fuck am I worried about tomorrow? Why am I worried about yesterday in the mistakes that I've made went at today right now in this moment is actually the only thing that I have control over, and you led me into my lead to you which is action and suffering. Dude, I am such a big proponent of that. I found myself at.

The Unbroken Nation, the audience knows they've heard this story 350-pound, smoking two packs a day, drinking myself to sleep work in the corporate America job, found myself a rock bottom, 11 years later. Now, I'm an award-winning speaker, best-selling author, coach people around the world, and back again and I swear the only way that happened is action and I think that hearing you say action and suffering is such a big proponent of that and I heard those words from you. So I wanted to say thank you for that, in the case of this journey been such a big deal. Why is that so important to you? Like what was the catalyst to come to that with yourself?

Jordan: Sure. So this wasn't something where I was like I read it in a clever self-help book or anything. This was one of those hard-won lessons where I was like; okay, so what happened was, I had a podcast in a business, a training company and I run it for 11 years, and over time I'd been doing like pretty much all the work I had a lot of teams, they were great, I worked with a lot of amazing people, but the people I had brought in as partners years and years before, it’s Thursday at 2:00 p.m., they're not answering their phones anymore, they're going out for, they want weeks and weeks off, they're not adding to the bottom line, they need raises because they have a credit card and debt. I'm like, okay, I'm saving money, I'm getting married, I want to have kids, I'm saving up for a house, these guys are like, hey, we have 30k in credit card debt, we need a raise and I'm like, this isn't working like we're paying more in taxes because you need more income.

So there were a lot of little disputes and we had an amicable split worked out, and then they just went, we're not going to honor this, we're not, we're just not going to honor it and then I was like, you know what? I have to start over on my own and do the Jordan Harbinger show and just not worry about it. Because when I talk to people, that what you might call mentors and guys that have sort of been there and done that and business, they were I know you think it's a big loss, just start over and move forward. Sue him or whatever but don't get bogged down in the suit, get to work moving forward and that was awesome advice, that's exactly what I did. But then my former partner sued me because they were like, wait, you weren't supposed to move on and be successful without us. So they tried to, well, they did file a lawsuit, it didn't go well for them and but it took a long time and it was expensive, it was much more expensive for them but that was a that's another story for another time. That's what happens when you sue lawyers, it gets expensive for you. So but I had been waking up for the first couple of weeks after the split and I was like, how am I going to restart this thing that I created over 11 years on my own like is the timing wrong, you know, I'd started in 2006 when podcasting was like new. Can you build a big podcast now? Are people going to find me? Do I have what it takes to do this on my own? Like all these questions, but it wasn't like, all right. I've got this. I was Oh my God! I'm screwed, and then, I'd wake up at 2, a.m. to go to the bathroom and I wouldn't be able to sleep again, and I'd be like, my heart's pounding. What is going on? And I went to the doctor because my wife was like, dude, you never sleep anymore, like I lost a bunch of weight, and so I went to the doctor and they're like, oh, your blood markers, everything's good. What's going on in your life? And I started talking about what was going on and they like, bro, you're having like literal, what sounds like panic attacks at night and I'm like, I don't fit. No, I'm not panicking. I'm just thinking about all these things that I have to do and I'm thinking about all these issues that I'm dealing with doing within like, yeah, it's called anxiety. Don't know if you've heard of it and I'm like, no, no, no your miss your misunderstanding, I'm worried but it's not like I'm freaking out. I'm just waking up and I can't go back to sleep but my heart's racing and they're like Hello Google freaking anxiety, you dumbass, this is what you have. And then, of course, many doctors are like here's pills, and I'm like no, no. Humans deal with anxiety. I don't need pills. I'm not having suicidal ideation. I'm not like, I don't have any issues with my body right now, we will monitor my blood panel, and you know, my blood and what is it, like, gut panel, you know, monitor the stuff that says, hey, you're killing yourself like, make sure that's not happening but I just started walking more outside. I started talking to friends more. I made sure I had social contact every single day even if it was like a 12-hour, 16 hours, super busy day. I would do like 30 minutes or 20 minutes or fifteen-minute call with a friend that helped a lot, but the action and suffering thing was I felt like I had so many things to do that you ever made a protein shake in a blender and the top comes off and everything in your disciple.

There goes my afternoon, right? Cause you're cleaning like frickin whey protein out of the lights, that's what I felt like my life was at that time and the energy had nowhere to go as like every day I'd wake up and it would be like (sounds) and I'd be all over the kitchen and I'd be like, oh! I gotta clean this up and I'm cleaning up all these little things, I got to start a Twitter account, I gotta open bank accounts, but then, I was all right.

Instead of freaking out about all this stuff because there's so much, I just sat down and I made a plan, it was like a hundred things that I had literally that I had to do. And I made this huge ass list with my wife and when I made the list, I did a few of them and then I took a glorious nap, and then when I woke up, I did a few more until I was tired, and then the next I went to bed and I slept fine because I was like, well tomorrow I'm going to do this and I'm probably out of time about here and I just started knocking everything down. And as I did that, my business was building up and I just rebuilding things and getting things back on track and I was like; Wow! Look, making a plan, great insight, jack off, why am I listening to you about this? Seriously, though? Like, if you have no plan of the plans only in your head, that's a huge problem because your head is going, well, maybe you should move this over here, but about that. Oh! But when you do this thing, don't forget about that, but if you write everything down and you're just knocking them down and then you think of something new, you just add it to your to-do list, there were hundreds of things on this list over the last few months or over the first few months of rebuilding the Jordan Harbinger Show, and as I knock them out, I felt better as opposed to feeling worse, which is what I felt like before because it would like it was like, pulling weeds, right? I'd pull one out and go.

Oh! Good. I finally did this and I'd be like, there are these three more things I didn't even think of, and I'm up at three, am typing and writing things down, that was miserable, but when I had the action, focus. I was able to focus my energy like a laser beam instead of a blender and that was really, what made me feel like instead of when, what is me, how am I going to do it? It was like, okay, we had a major setback, but I'm on my feet and I'm walking and I'm warming up to a run again.

Whereas before I was just kind of rolling around in the mud, that's really what it was. I was gaining, no ground, even if I was gaining ground, it didn't feel like it because I didn't have any sort of sense of a map of the territory and it didn't feel like I had forward momentum.

Michael: Yeah, I absolutely love that and I tell people all the time, write down your damn goals, every single day, write down your list every single day because where you focus your attention, your energy follows, and on a long enough timeline, you create the life that you want to have. And I think about momentum playing such an important role in this because dude, you started one little thing at a time every single day, moving forward in a long enough timeline, you created the thing that you wanted to have and there's nothing more important than that, just thing zero in focused in, on that.

Jordan: Another thing I'll tell you before, I forget, because that's what happens with me, again, dark circles for eyes. No sleep. One of the things that I recommend highly is realizing in real-time, like, every day, if you're suffering a setback, you don't have to do this randomly, but if you're suffering a setback, one of the things that helped me a lot was looking at what I didn't lose, and I don't mean like I still have my family, okay, fine, gratitude is good. We all know this. You have probably gone through gratitude before, but like on the very practical note, for me it was like, okay, I lost the social media accounts. How good were those and what did they do for the business? Well, they took a shitload of time and I hated every second of it, and Facebook is a toxicessful like it, right? and I was like, wait a minute. So now I'm kind of off the hook, like, maybe just don't do those until later or never, and then it was like, well, I also didn't lose my network which turned out to be like the number one thing that got me back on my feet and back on track was all these relationships. Nobody can really take those away from you unless your name and reputation take a major knows that.

If your Jared from Subway like you probably lost your network, right? But if you're not you're probably it was dark, but if you're not like you probably all right, you know, you're probably all right, your skills, when I had to start my show over it was like why can still interview people? I still have eleven years of hard-won experience. I still have my background as an attorney. I still am doing journalism and interviews and prep and I've still got all the systems that I invented in my sales with all the stuff I still have. But I was focused so much on these old results, but it's kind of almost like Let's say that you're a bodybuilder and you lose an arm, you can lament losing that arm like my deltoids were so defined on that arm, that got chopped off her. You just focus on what you have left and you work on that stuff, and it seems again very obvious to those of us who are not dealing with that loss right now, but when you are dealing with loss man, it's like a freaking magnet. You just as a tractor beam, you're looking always at the whole that's there and very rarely, are you looking at everything else that surrounds it but you still have and focusing on that stuff is extremely important because that makes you realize you're not starting again, from zero, you're starting again, from 80 percent or 60 percent or 75, right? It's usually not even close to zero, it just looks like you're starting from zero because you lost the one thing at the moment in time that you lose it are currently focused on, that make sense?

Michael: 100%.  And you can take those losses. You can take those mistakes. You can take those things and measure them as data points because it gives you a better understanding of what you should and should not do and how you can and cannot do things to create change in your life. Now, I'm going to ask you a personal question since I have you here. This is for being Unbroken Nation, I'm sorry, I love you guys, but I have to ask this question.

You've been able to interview some of the most incredible minds in the world, including Tom bill, Kobe Bryant, TIP like all of these people who have done amazing things that I include you in the scope of those people who have done amazing things. What do you guys have in common?

Jordan: Yeah, you know, it's an interesting thing. I found that this is something whenever I tell like high schoolers or college people might take notes, getting in touch with Ray Dalio really easy, getting in touch with Mark Cuban really easy, getting in touch with Rick Ross really easy, getting in touch with Kobe Bryant his team really easy, getting in touch with somebody who like is in the middle of the road YouTuber would impossible, why is that? Well, when I write to Ray Dalio or these super high performers, Mark Cuban, they either answer their own email or somebody on their team is like, hey, just got this will be back to you. We have a meeting once a month where we discuss these opportunities. We’ll circle back and then, sure enough, either you circle back with them or they circle back with you. They have systems in place, they are organized. For me, I've got to-do lists, I use Trello, I've got slack for my company, which only has like five or six people and we still use that stuff, I've got shortcuts and text expander, right? Like everything is archived, we use Google Drive, the files are always in one place everything is sorted and organized. We do that a lot here and I'm not naturally that person, right? I do that because I am not naturally that person and I need the systems to stay in place. People will say something like Jordan man, you always keep in touch with me, it's like every six months or so you write to me. Well, that's because I have a CRM with my friends and even my family in it. When's the last time you called your cousin been years, man, go call your cousin, right? When's the last time you wrote something to your aunt? Now, you see her at Christmas, it's fine now man, shoot her a text, send her an email, whatever it is, right? That's the stuff I need reminders for in these guys all have the same thing, right? Rick Ross, or whoever might be like, kind of an artist mine, where, a lot of things might go in one ear and out the other but his assistant isn't his publicist, isn't his lawyer isn't? These are people who are organized around him and he brought them in because he knows that he's going to be focused on music and not thinking got to remember Jordan Harbingers birthday, you know, any like this is the reason that people who are successful, they're not just better organized, they will organize things so that they don't have to be organized, there are fail-safes, right? That's what I think we all have in common is better systems, and the good news is it's not hard to build systems, it's hard to will yourself into being better at keeping in touch, it's really not hard to build to use a CRM, that's already built that says. Hey, you have to email these five people because it's been a year and you go.  Okay and do it, right? Like that's what the good news is, it's really easy to act like a high performer. We have so many systems now, you don't need to hire a full-time assistant, you have digital for all of this, but I noticed that people who are not kind of with it and not together they have excuses instead of systems or they have like, yeah, excuses really are the main cross of it, they have excuses instead of systems. Well, you know, how busy I am, you probably not busier than Mark Cuban but yeah, I know how busy you are, right? So, and that's what kind of got me to really realize that level of performance because it was easy to go, you know, if years ago, I got you to know, how busy I am, I have so many emails, I have this and that the other and then it's like you deal with Ray Dalio, Mark Cuban, Kobe Bryant's team in your like these people are at way up here and they have way together. I don't have an excuse of being like, I'm important, you know, so, you shed that nonsense story real fast. When you realize how real high performers, act and behave in operate.

Michael: Man! powerful powerful, powerful. Jordan, my friend, thank you so much for being here. Before I ask you my last question, can you tell everyone where they can find you?

Jordan: Yeah, the Jordan Harbinger show, it's a podcast. I've been doing it for 14 years or some incarnation of a podcast for 14 years, and it's one of the most popular podcasts in America / in apple or Spotify. So I'm grateful for that because a few years ago, it wasn't but yeah, I would love it people check me out there, I don't sell anything. So, come on over and have a listen to the Jordan Harbinger Show.

Michael: Beautiful. All about momentum. My friend and my last question for you is, what does it mean to you, to be unbroken?

Jordan: You know, I tried to be clever and find that Japanese can Sugi analogy, and before the show, you were like, are you fine, are you googling this? And I was like, oh, there goes my clever response but, you know, unbroken, it's kind of it's an idea that no one is right? Maybe a small child who's like my son who's two, right? He's unbroken but I don't think. Do we want to even have this ideal guide us? I mean, look, I like your brand. Don't get me wrong but I also think it's dangerous to feel like we need to be a certain way, maybe what Unbroken really is realizing is that all of the experiences we go through didn't actually break us after all. I think a lot of people are like, oh, put myself together with gold Kensuke, right? But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, well, wait a minute, all the crap that I went through, actually just made me really strong. I don't go to the gym and come back and go, man. I'm going to be weak and sore forever. That's not why people go to the gym, right? They go there to work out and get stronger and I feel like that's what life does to you whether you like it or not, and so for me, unbroken is really the idea that maybe a lot of the things that we think break us actually to the use the old cliché, don't kill us, but make us stronger.

Michael: Beautiful, my friend, well said.

Unbroken Nation, thank you so much for listening.

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