The Process of Healing from Grief | with Charlie Ray

Michael: Hey! What's up, Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. Very excited to be back with you with another episode with my guest and friend, Charlie Ray. What's up my friend? How are you today?

Charlie: It's going well, man. Love being here. Appreciate it.

Michael: Yeah, of course, thanks for coming out, man. I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you, your story, your mission, your journey is admirable. I think about the effort and energy that it takes in one's life for them to transform in the way that you have and that you are currently working towards. And there are people that I meet in my life where I get the opportunity to get to know them a little bit better than most people and that's obviously something that started to happen with us. It's just an honor to have you here today, man.

Charlie: I appreciate it. Thank you.

Michael: Yeah, for sure. To start, tell us something that we need to know about you to understand who you are today.

Charlie: I think with me looking at my past and then looking to where I'm going, I look at this journey and it's like, I would've never thought that I would've had the ability to do something like this. So, it's this strength and fortitude I've never done anything in my life where I've been this much laser focused on making an impact in this world. And as I thought about that when you said that earlier, it just blew my mind like, wow, you've been on this journey and you're still going on it and you're still going strong ‘cuz you wanna make a difference and you wanna serve and help people.

Michael: The journey is never ending. I tell people all the time, like when you come into coaching, I'm like, you better understand this is a rest of your life game. There's no two ways about it. I mean this is just the game even though some days it's painful and a lot of days you're like, I don't wanna do this. Take me back. What was childhood? Where did you grow up? What was the experience for you?

Charlie: I was in a suburb in Milwaukee and I grew up one of eight kids, so I was the youngest boy, just remember growing up and things I noticed, you know, just trying to fit in, I didn't fit in with my other brothers and sisters. I didn't feel like I was connected with them, I was very unique and different, I wanted to stand out. I always remember as a little kid, always inserting humor, just always doing something to make everybody laugh, very big into sports and just realized like moving from where I was and how I fit in now and all my brothers and sisters looking at who I am now, I think they're just amazed with that journey and where I've gone because they would've never seen that as a little kid in who I was, ‘cause I was so outgoing and so vocal and so strong and just did whatever I wanted to do and it was just, I never fit in with them.

Michael: I felt like as a kid I never fit into anything. Part of that's ‘cuz I'm a contrarian part of it is because I just don't care what people think about me. And that's always kind of been that way, I mean, being the poorest kid in school, you learn how to turn off your feelings, for caring what people think. What element of that, especially in the sibling environment where you like, I just don't fit here?

Charlie: So, when I was four years old, I remember I was actually run over by a drunk driver, I was running across the street the drunk driver hit me. I died my mom's arms. I remember floating up, I saw my mom holding me crying, I could recognize every single one of my neighbors. I started to float up. I saw a white light and I remember the next thing I was being loaded into the ambulance. From that moment on, before that moment, I'd sit down, we'd read a book, I'd be calm, that moment I'd have temper tantrums. Well, back in the later seventies, they didn't know what traumatic brain injuries were. So they looked at me as being ADHD and put me on Ritalin.

Michael: At four years old?

Charlie: Four or five years old, I was in Ritalin. I remember that. always having, my mom had to crush it up in the spoon and put some sugar just so I could take it ‘cuz I couldn't swallow pills and so that was my journey. And so having my other brothers and sisters, the difference, the uniqueness of who I was because of that injury, they didn't understand it, they didn't understand that there was something wrong, they just looked at me as the one that would always cause problems or be in trouble or whatever it was. So, that was part of the reason where I felt like I didn't fit in because I was always the one that would ruin Christmas or whatever like that's how I was looked at that's how I was perceived.

Michael: How was you ruin Christmas?

Charlie: Oh, I'd get in fist fights with my older brother. I'd just say something, I'd get mad, like, stuff like that.

Michael: I get that. One of my brothers and I, we went to war constantly, I mean, we grew up in a very violent household in general, but in my old house on Welch Drive, there is an outline of one of my little brother's bodies in the drywall, ‘cuz I slammed him through it when I was like, I bet we're probably 14 and 15, it was like Thanksgiving or Easter, it was all like the whole family. And even though the family was all crazy, the whole family was like at the house and I just like blasted him right through the drywall.

Charlie: I do remember, like, so my brother TJ was like four years older than me. I remember, we battled a lot I mean, I would do stuff. I remember one time he was chasing me around the swimming pool like two times and then I just jumped in the swimming pool with all my clothes on ‘cuz I knew he wouldn't jump in after me. But it's interesting because of all of that, us going head-to-head all the time the one thing my brother brought me everywhere. If we went to do his skiing for high school, he brought me, I went to skiing on my own. I knew all the high school football players, all of his college football players, he'd bring me in the locker room like so, even though we but heads a lot, he brought me and incorporated me in his part of that world, which made a closer bond with us, obviously.

Michael: Yeah. I did the that as the older brother. I did the opposite cause I was running the streets, selling drugs, stealing cars, and I just I remember distinctly being like, I want my brothers away from me. I don't want them involved in this.

Charlie: But that's a form of protection.

Michael: It was, but I didn't have the language then so it was like, I'm gonna do this. So, you're growing up Milwaukee living, what is a seemingly normal life for a kid? What starts to happen? What starts to transpire in your life as you start to go into high school, into what's next? What were your visions? What were you trying to do? Like, break down for me a little bit deeper about what you saw your life becoming?

Charlie: Yeah. I know always as a little kid; I want to be a cop and I think it's because it was really cool. But I started noticing going into high school, ‘cuz I went to an all-boys Jesuit high school. And I noticed going into high school, more of the service; serving and helping others. And I always wanted to make a difference, I always wanted to serve and help people. I actually did, later in life after college, I got a criminal justice degree, I went into law enforcement. So, I went into law enforcement, I wanted to help people, I was a Milwaukee County deputy Sheriff for three years in the Milwaukee County Jail, and I could not help anybody. It actually made me more negative and cynical as a person than it did helping and serving. And I recognized that, and I gotta get out of this, but you know what, honestly, and that was the one thing I'm like, okay, I always wanted to be a cop. Let me try it. After that, I was just job to job, I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up. And I was like, I had nothing, just felt kind of empty like I couldn't do anything. I didn't know what to do.

Michael: I think about the people will sometimes say, you know, never meet your heroes. And I think about that, about our dreams sometimes, where it's like, you think you know what it is until you touch it. And then you're like, wait, this isn't actually the thing. What was it about becoming a cop and becoming a deputy sheriff where you're like, actually, hold on, this isn't the thing?

Charlie: The one thing that made me realize I had to get out of it is I remember walking into the building where the jail was, and I would literally be getting sick to my stomach. I was feeling physical pain by going there, and I just it felt wrong and I'm like, I can't do this. This is not for me.

Michael: What part of it wasn't for you?

Charlie: I think not making a difference. Like literally trying so hard to give advice and what to do and it's like nobody cared.

Michael: I want you, like take the space here, right? We've got time. Why do you think nobody cared?

Charlie: Maybe in their environment, maybe with the people that I was dealing with, maybe nobody cared about them and maybe that's why they were in there. And so, for somebody else to try and help them and care about them or give them advice, maybe they weren't willing to listen. I don't know I can't be in that space as far as why they did not want help, why they did not want to better their life, I couldn't figure that out. But it was frustrating ‘cuz it was like a revolving wheel over and over again where I wanted to make an impact. I want to help them and maybe I did, but I never saw the end result ‘cuz if they'd leave, I don't know what their life turns out like. I didn't see an instant gratification. I didn't see, oh yeah, that helped me out a lot. Thank you so much, you don't see that. So, you may have been helping, but maybe I did nothing but I couldn't see it. I couldn't see, I was making impact. I couldn't see, I was helping somebody. And so, for me, I wanted to see that I actually couldn't make an impact in somebody's life.

Michael: Yeah. I resonate with that a lot. I think one of the most difficult parts is recognizing that there's an exponential and reciprocal growth that happens from the impact that we have that you'll never see. It's like planting a seed under a tree you'll never sit under. You just don't know. I mean, you have no idea and further, I mean, you never know who's watching. One of the things that really captivated me about your story is you are putting yourself in this situation like, I'm going to create a little more context before I ask you this question. There are people in the world who are empathic, who are kind, who are servant leaders, who want to make the world a def a different place, it's just in us and I will say this in full transparency, I was not always this way. I remember in high school; kids would make fun of me. I've only had one nickname in my life well, I've had two. I won't tell you the other one, but I had one nickname in high school. Kids called me Coach, but it was demeaning because I was very much like, come on guys, we can do this. And it's interesting how that was really the foundation for now, 20 years later, what I do every single day. And there is something about the drive of being willing to step into who you're supposed to be that is really powerful. And unfortunately, I think sometimes there's catalyst. Like, you're looking at your life where you're going now, and obviously I'm sure you can guess where I'm going with this, but the audience can't. And so, I would love for you to go into like what is the catalyst that have led you to where you are in the work that you're doing today?

Charlie: Yeah. I remember it was my son Christopher's eighth grade year, and he was 14 years old, he was 6’1, 220. Literally coached him for years at football like this kid was a leader on the football team in eighth grade. So, it was really cool because I coached for over 25 years, youth sports. And so, part of that was coaching my kids I got to coach him, but we're going into his eighth-grade year and he comes up to us and he goes, hey, I'm having trouble sleeping, I can't get to sleep. So, we called the pediatrician, but this pediatrician was new because the old pediatrician had retired. In fact, his old pediatrician was my pediatrician as a kid so, you could tell he was ready to retire. But when Christopher was a toddler, he was put on prescription sleep medicine because he did have trouble sleeping. And so, because of that trouble sleeping, the pediatrician tested him. Maybe, didn't not look back in his files, I don't know, but diagnose him with depression. And so, she's like, we're gonna put him, he's mildly depressed we're gonna put him on Zoloft. And I remember the words Christopher said to me, he said, dad, I don't feel depressed like I don't feel depressed, like those words are always there. And I remember as the weeks went on into months, like we started noticing that he was wearing long sleeved shirts. And so, we're like, hey, go put on short sleeves, like, we're in the house, it's hot, put on something else and he wouldn't do it. So, his mom and I got suspicious and literally had to force up his sleeves and he had cut marks on both arms. And I literally just like, my heart just sunk, like I could not help my own child, I did not know how to help him. So, we brought him to a psychologist because that's what you do or you think that's what you need to do to help your kids. And so, we brought him to the psychologist and he talked to Christopher, talked to us. Yeah. He is depressed, increased his medication. We're out at a funeral. We come home, his mom and I are running out to go get some food. He's staying there with the kids Gigi, who is three years old, and Mikayla was nine. And so, we ran out, got the pizza, and all of a sudden, I see my wife flagging me down from the pizza place. I run out to the car, she goes, Mikayla's on the phone. Christopher's not responding to her, he's not moving, she thinks he's playing a joke. And literally my heart just sunk, like I knew something was wrong. So, when we raced home, I remember going through every stop sign, every stoplight and I remember getting out of the car and distinctly, I don't know, but I just remember smelling that burning smell of the brakes. And we raced down into the house, down to the basement and Christopher had hung himself.

So, we had to cut him down and start CPR. He was taken out to one hospital and then they had to bring him via helicopter out to the local children's hospital. And we were driving out there, you know, and we're discussing, is he gonna be okay? Is he gonna be okay? And we get out there and before we would even go in, the doctors came out and they're like, this is serious. This is not a good situation. I want to prepare you for this. And he was in the ICU, we went in there, he was hooked up to like all these machines and three days later I remember going in and asking the doctor, I said, I wanna know what's going on, like what is happening? And they showed us the brain scans and so your brain swells up when it doesn't have enough oxygen and you could just see the scan. And I said to him, I said, so he's brace basically brain dead? And she, he goes, yeah. So, we had to take him off life support and I just remember like his sister felt so guilty. And I remember sitting in the room with her telling her that her brother's not coming home like that was the hardest thing I had to do like for her to be put in that situation, like that was so hard as a father for any of that to happen.

Michael: Yeah. So, something I can't imagine, obviously, I mean, I don't have children, but the people often say the greatest love that you ever have is having a child and the greatest pain you'll ever feel is losing them. And you think about prescription drugs particularly, and it's like, I go and I look at like the journey of my family. Most of my family was addicted to prescription drugs. And I watched Oxycontin take my mother's life like, everyone knows now how absolutely dangerous that drug was. And I'm a proponent, I think there's always a space for pharmaceutical intervention, but I think the hard part is we just don't understand what's going to happen ‘cuz everyone is so incredibly different. And we look at those, those signs of whatever the thing is that we think we understand and you just don't understand the things that are happening when you consume these drugs. I have found, even in my own journey, like I would hide my mom's pills or throw them away or flush them down the toilet, and I don't think it would've mattered. You know, I think that, and the reason I'm prefacing this with what I'm gonna ask you is because ultimately there's that space where we have to realize we don't get any control over other people's decisions, no matter what. There's something about the letting go of it. I don't know if I've ever said this before, I used to beat myself up all the time because I felt like I wasn't doing enough to keep my mom sober, dude, it was consummate. Whatever I could do to hide her pills, get rid of the alcohol, which eventually led to this place where I was 18. And I told her, I said, I'll never talk to you again and that being one of the singular reasons I'm probably even here today, hardest to this day, hardest decision I've ever made. And when she died, my little brother called me and she goes, hey man, mom's dead. I'm 23 or 24 and I go, okay, cool. Thanks. Have a great day. I hung up the phone and I didn't go to her funeral because I remember feeling, and I even feel to this day, like, and I mean what I'm going to say, I felt like I made the right choice. Years later, I was probably like 30, 31, I started having these feelings of being like the weight and the burden of not allotting myself, not her, myself, the forgiveness for something I didn't have control over. And so, I guess really the first thing I wanted to ask you was like, what was going through your head in that moment about the role that you potentially played, and how have you been able to reconcile that experience now many years removed?

Charlie: Yeah. I think for quite a while I was just in shock like I remember sitting in the funeral and thinking to myself, why can I not cry at my son's funeral? Like, I was in shock people are like, you're in shock, Charlie. So, it was a lot of grief therapy, figuring stuff out but we look at the role I played back then, I remember I just took action, I just went into action to try and save my son. And I noticed that about me, and I noticed that about my kids, they just take action like it's just kind of programmed into 'em. Right. And so, looking at that moment and then getting into the moment where you're like, what did I do wrong? Why did he do this? Like now I'm blaming myself and figuring out why. And you never have the question, you'll never have that answer why. And so, what I needed to do is look at what happened to him and how can I make sure it doesn't happen to anybody else? That's kind of the drive that got underneath me to figure out how could I help other people so they don't have to suffer. So, I guess I look at that role then, and I kind of flipped it 180 and say, okay, because of this, what can I do to make an impact in other people's lives? And that's kind of where that led into what I'm doing now.

Michael: With your daughter and the responsibility that she felt, which I've actually heard other people say this with their children when these moments happen. I guess there's a multiple fold question here had this conversation with a guest recently. And so, I'm curious about your perspective and what happened from in your life. How did you navigate the healing journey for yourself with your spouse and with your children?

Charlie: Well, I know, I remember we got into grief counseling immediately and we did that for about three years, our kids were into grief counseling as well, just trying to talk it out. I know Mikayla felt guilty quite a long time, ‘cuz we discussed it later that she could have done more. And so, as a father, I tried to explain to her like, your brother was 220 pounds and 6’1, you were nine years old you couldn't have done anything more than what you did. And I even told her, I remember saying to her, I'm like, you're my hero that night. I'm like, Mikayla, you blew my mind on how you took action and what to do, for a nine-year-old, that blew my mind. So, I tried to validate their feelings as far as like, you have a right to feel that way, but you're not seeing it from the way I saw it and what you did that night.

So, I tried to help heal them, to make them realize that you're not the cause of this. You didn't have to do more. You did everything that you were supposed to do because that's what was supposed to be done. And you did exactly that, no more, no less. And I took that own advice with myself saying, you cannot take blame for how things were in the past, whether you got angry at him or whatever, and nitpick every little thing. You have to look at what you've done now to help keep this family together, to help figure out what we're going to do to move forward and just take one step at a time. And I had to keep telling myself that to get out of that mindset of feeling like, You're the cause of this that maybe you did something to do that because we all felt that way. What did we do wrong? And so, because I was doing that with her, I needed to do that with myself. And I took note of that ‘cuz that helped in that healing journey too.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, you didn't do anything wrong. I mean, like that's the nature of it. I think that holds true for everything in life, it's like, if you want to be able to move forward, you're not the worst thing that's ever happened or the worst thing that you've ever done. It doesn't always feel like that. And most days you kind of want to beat yourself up. But it's like you can't, you can't continue to move forward if you don't forgive yourself. I remember sitting in my therapist's office, I'm like very young in this journey and we were having this conversation and it was like, why am I depressed all the time? He said something interesting to me. He goes, well, depression is because you still feel grief of the past. Right. You haven't been able to let it go. And I remember being like, but how do you let go of something like your mother cutting your finger off of being a homeless drug addict when you're, before you can even drive a car. How do you let go of people that hurt you so much? And he said, what you have to do is you have to grieve the loss. You have to be okay with the sadness of the experience, with the pain that comes along with it. And I didn't understand that when he said it to me. I only really understood it once I got to the place where like I could actually feel the emotion of it. Right. You said something that I think probably holds true for most people in this situation, that you were in shock. What was the journey like from that moment, your, here at the funeral, this is arguably probably one of the most painful moments a human being can have to the feelings and emotions start to show up?

Charlie: Yeah, I remember that, there was like a numbness for a quite a while, just feeling numb, just not knowing what to do. And we had a good community, like the church people came and helped, they brought food like that helped because we couldn't even think like trying to deal with the situation. I remember Mikayla had office school, the rest of the rest of that semester they just gave her off, don't worry about anything, just go do what you need to do and just trying to put step to step together. And I just remember, I'm like, and I don't even know remember why I did this ‘cause I was never a drinker. I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna start drinking and see if that helps. I actually turned to something to realize like, you know, maybe it'll help obviously it didn't, that did not do anything for me, and I stopped it quickly. I wasn't like an addiction, I just realized that, man, it's 10 o'clock in the morning and you're making yourself a screwdriver like why are you doing this? Like you've got two kids that you need that physically see that they're suffering. And when you look at them like that's spark that just kind of like, okay, I gotta be here for these kids. I've gotta start doing something and take care of myself, not only the grief, but I was also 355 pounds. So, I made the decision to get a gastric bypass surgery too, because I need to be here for these kids, I am not going into the grave to make sure that they have to sit at another funeral like this. And so, I started taking care of myself, I started figuring out what do I need to do? And I was unemployed at the time because I was around when the housing crash hit, and we lost all of our contracts for the jobs that I was in at the time, and I was unemployed like I just had to put these pieces together, I had to start working on myself. I had start figuring stuff out, and there was no wrong or right reason or way of doing it too, right? Because it's like grief is so different for everyone else and it's so interesting being at the funeral some of the things that people said I noticed like, oh, I know how you feel, I lost my mother. And I'm thinking to myself, well, I'm sorry you lost your mother, but you don't know how I feel. And so, because of that experience, I never say that to somebody, I have no idea how you're feeling because it's your grief and it's so different. And then you hear the line of what time will help heal it and it doesn't like there'll be multiple times a day that I cry because of what happened to my son, but I believe that pain ignites this fire to like be empathetic to other people. And so, when I'm able to be empathetic to that person, I'm able to understand their pain and I want to help them and I wanna serve them. And so that's kind of that fire that I learned what I'm trying to do to help other people and I need that in my life, that's how I rationalize it. Right. I need that in my life because that's part of my journey and I don't wanna forget that.

Michael: We do need it. And the rationalization like, we'll the brain's purpose is to find meaning in everything. Right. And even the most painful of experiences. And it's funny you say that, I don't mean to laugh, it no makes me kind of laugh to think the sh*t people probably send you at the funeral and you're like, yes dude, what the f*ck are you talking about dude? You know, and people will do that to me sometimes ‘cuz they hear my story and they know about my background. And like you, like, you grew up with both your parents in the suburbs and you went to Harvard, we have nothing in common. Right. And I'm like, but that's okay ‘cuz I appreciate the effort. There's this moment where you had to make a decision about what you're gonna do moving forward in your life. Most people, I would have to assume in the work that you do, you probably see this much closer than I'm extrapolating just based off of conjecture really? ‘Cuz I don't know it or lived it. That most people, they lose a child and everything about their life is over. Why do you think that happens to them and why has it not happened to you?

Charlie: Well, Christopher's death was actually just the start of what happened. So, after Christopher died, actually the day of, I was having my gastric bypass so, it was about eight months later, I get a call from my mom and she's crying on the phone and she goes, Terry died, that's my sister's husband, they have a brand-new baby at the age of 40, had a massive heart attack and died in his sleep.

So, on my day of my surgery, which is pretty much was free because of the insurance that we had to pay for Christopher, I had to have that surgery. So, they put him to sleep or they had the funeral. And so, after that, I get another call about four months later, your dad's got lung cancer, so he is going through chemo. Well, he passed away four months after that, about a month after my dad passed away, I found out my mom was having all this bleeding issues and I'm like, mom, you gotta go to the hospital. And she goes, I don't want to go. And so, I called the on-call nurse I said, will you please call my mom? She's having all this bleeding, all these issues. Will you please tell her to go to the hospital? So, she called my mom. My mom called me back. She goes, okay, I'll go. So, I went and picked her up, brought her out the hospital, and I remember sitting there, she went for all these testings, we're sitting outside, the doctors are outside the office and I remember them coming in and said, you have cancer. My mom died a few months after that, but I remember in that hospital room just breaking down, crying and actually at my mom's funeral it just, I had no feeling like the feeling was gone for me. And then a short while after that, I ended up getting divorced ‘cuz there's like a really high just everything changed. And I was at a low place and I would remember sitting at my parents' house because I moved into my parents' house ‘cuz that we're gonna sell it. And I was living there and I remember making a comment on Facebook, I'm like, I'm done. All of a sudden, I get a knock on the door, the police come in, take me down to mental health ‘cuz of the statements that I don't wanna live anymore. And then when I was down at mental health and then I finally got released, they understood like, that's a lot for anyone to deal with. And I'm like, Charlie, you need to start fixing this sh*t, not only about yourself, but like you've got two kids here actually at that time, three kids, ‘cuz Grayson came along later.

So, it was like, you've got three kids that you need to take care of. You need to start figuring this out. And literally, there's no wrong or right reason to do this or way to do it. It's just one foot in front of the other and you're gonna fail and you're gonna fail a f*cking lot. But you know what? You step up and you take the next step, you fall down and you get back up. Because the one thing I learned after all those deaths and the divorce, is that nothing is going to knock me down again because I went through the worst. I don't care what you do, I'm gonna keep standing back up and I'm gonna keep fighting because that pain that I had to go through in my life, that was the worst that I've ever experienced and hope that I'll ever experience again so nothing is gonna compare to that. So, I'm just gonna stand back up and do the next thing and keep moving forward.

Michael: It almost seems insurmountable though, you know, I mean, and I see when people will post things like that on social, like, it is a cry for help. I mean, you're like, f*ck, like somebody, please help me. I get it, they did, it makes sense to me and someone thank God someone did. But you look at it and it's like, who could blame you if you take your own life? I mean, God damn, that is so much pain, there is so much hurt. When I was 25, and obviously share this openly, but I put a gun in my mouth. I was like, I'm so f*cking done. The pain, the hurt, the suffering, and in this phase of my life at like you 350 f*cking pounds, smoking two packs a day, drinking myself to sleep, I was like, I don't give a f*ck. Anything is better. Even though I'd made like a million bucks and I had a nice car and I was having sex with all these women, I was like, f*ck this, I'm over it. And it's like, ultimately life is going to life, that is a moniker that really played a special role for me. And in that it's given me a lot of freedom just to continue to step forward into what's next. And I'm so fortunate in a lot of ways that I had that experience at 25 because it's allowed me to be here and openly have these really difficult conversations because why would you not want to end your life? Why would you not want to make the pain go away and make the hurt and the suffering? And I think about this a lot now, especially with what I do, is how do you turn the pain into purpose? But in the moment, like I'm going to do this sh*t one day like this wasn't on the agenda. It was just like, okay, cool, if I can just brush my f*cking teeth today and then real. I was just like, at the low, I was like, can I just f*cking get up and brush my teeth? Just get outta bed.

Charlie: But it was a step.

Michael: And it was a step. And that's the thing that I come to. But I want to go back into this cause there's just this curiosity I have because you're closer to this world than I am, unfortunately, obviously. But why is it that when families have a loss like this, that some people just forever, their life is gone? Like, what is it that happened? Like when you lose your child, what is happening to you?

Charlie: Man, I don't even know how to put that into words. It's like, I've never felt a pain like that like it's so strong, but you said it before, it's like the greatest love is having a child, right? Like you said that. And then the greatest loss is losing that child. Well, I did lose that child and it was the hardest thing and the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my life like nothing will compare to it, everything else that happens to me going forward, nothing compared to that, that's why I get back up. But the one thing, I had three other kids and so I need to step up for them because there was no way in h*ll I was gonna let Michaela think that she could have done something to fix that scenario. So, I wanted to be there for them. I want that to show them how you can go from down here and keep stepping and moving forward. So, I had to be a role model for my kids, I had to keep fighting, I had to keep doing, I screwed up a lot. You know, there's no book on parenting and if you're reading a book on parenting, I'd throw it away because each kid is so different. So, there's no wrong or right way, but the one thing there is just, I'm just gonna try to be the best role model, the best example, keep fighting for them that I can.

Michael: What did you have to change within yourself to get to that place?

Charlie: Man, that was a while ago. I don't remember a concrete thing that I had to change, but I remember like these habits that were not serving me needed to change. Like obviously having two dinners a night, that shit was gone because I had to take care of my kids, granted, I had a gastric bypass surgery, but it's like, no, you need to eat healthier. If my goal was wrapped around being there for my kids and being the best that I could be, okay, start eating healthier. Keep trying to work and find a way to make more money, do fun things with them. Like it's just things, basic things that I remember that my parents always did for us. Take us on vacations, do different things, go to our sporting events, support them. So, you're just role modeling what you had in your life as a parent, or the opposite what you had the lack of and you wanted to provide to your children because you didn't receive it. And so, it was just, okay, what can I do? And I didn't know, man, I did not know what to do. I just tried to do the best I could with all the information that I had, either growing up or being an adult, and there especially no playbook on like losing a child and then having to take care of three other kids on top of it. I think through, for years, I was just an autopilot like I didn't know, I just did in the moment what I thought I should do. So, there was no real like concrete thing, like, oh, I should do this, I should do this, that came a lot later as I grew and started to work on myself more, but for years it was just on autopilot.

Michael: When you think about if you were to pinpoint something that was the most transformational decision you made, what would it have been? Because I think sometimes it can literally be like one thing. When I go back and I look at this catalyst, for me it was like, go and tell the truth in therapy, that became, honestly, dude, the f*cking cornerstone for everything because I realize I was just such a good liar and lying to myself, lying to my girlfriends who didn't know each other existence simultaneously lying to my siblings, lying to the people in the bill collectors would call ‘cuz I put myself 50 grand in debt. Like lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, all the f*cking time was killing me, it was literally eating me alive. And I was like, just go tell the truth in therapy once even a sentence. Right? And so I'm curious, was there one thing?

Charlie: Yeah. The one thing that kind of saved my life and started moving me in the right direction was that gastric bypass, it was the best decision, even though I was pretty painful to go through it. But it was the best decision I made but I made the decision for my kids. So it was wrapped around everything that I did moving forward was gonna be for my kids no matter how hard it was but seeing the pain and what they had to go through. Actually, I'll go back to the moment in the hospital where I had to tell Mikayla that her brother was not coming home, that was the switch that I knew I had to do something different, I knew that I had to figure out a way how to be the best dad that I could be tat was very, very hard to see her break down and cry ‘cuz you just lost a child and now your other child is like devastated that her brother's not coming home, that was definitely, I'll point to that moment was my moment. Like, you need to get sh*t together for you.

Michael: It's so fascinating how sometimes the rock bottom isn't of your own doing. I've interviewed everybody and we all agree, you have to have a rock bottom for things to change. It sucks. It's unfair. It is arguably the most painful thing you'll ever experience. But I don't know why it's necessary, but it's just necessary, I think you have to have it. I constantly am like, how do you mitigate the risk of the rock bottom? How do you create change? How do you give? Because like you probably had opportunities to be that dad, many, many times before that moment. And I don't wanna say you took it for granted ‘cuz I don't know but that's my thought is like I took being a brother for granted. I took being a leader for granted. I took being an entrepreneur for granted constantly until I lost everything and I'm like scrounging around trying to make it. And you said something I think was really interesting is like even after this decision there were still failures. And people think often, like, I made the decision life is gonna be easier now. And it's like, no, no, no, no., you don't understand. Life is actually just about to start. What were some of those failures for you?

Charlie: I remember getting out and trying to like do my own business, Facebook marketing, right? So, I was trying to do the Facebook marketing thing, failure after failure after failure. But I stuck with it for a while, right? I'm like, maybe this is not what I'm supposed to be doing. So, it's stuff like that. The one thing I look back at, even with my kids, I learned things as I failed to be a better father. So, as I moved forward and took my steps forward and my kids, now that's even harder, is to watch your kids fail and try to let them hit rock bottom as a parent without interjecting and telling them what to do, but guiding them with your own failures and telling your kids, look, this is what happened to me. And you just tell a story ‘cuz the kids always loved my stories. I was always a storyteller, so they loved my story so I would tell them of my failure of what they went through and it lessened their pain as a child or even going into high school sharing with them. I remember one time my son Grayson, and I said a few words to him, I go, Grayson ‘cuz he was gonna have a friend come over, but he was being annoying so I wasn't gonna invite him. I said, you know what Grayson, what about if you're his only friend and now he's really sad and I know that's not the type of person you are, I know that you are a person that wants to do things with other people and make sure that they feel good too. What do you think that he may be going through that if you said no to him and all, he says, nah, you know what? You're right dad. So, it's stuff like that and I wouldn't have known how to say that to 'em if I didn't fail and learned what to say to my kids or anybody else. Right? Because when you show your failures, you're authentic, you're vulnerable and they know that, you're like, dad's just human too like I get it, that's interesting ‘cuz I remember growing up, my dad went through a rough childhood. I found this out later in life that my dad was living at on his own at 16, still going to high school. And I remember my dad would tell me stories about the Navy that were pretty like gruesome, but I never remember one story of my dad's childhood.

So, it was really interesting to put those pieces together. And now knowing what my dad went through, I was like, h*ly sh*t, my dad was an awesome dad. After knowing what he went through and how he handled himself in our situation, I blew my mind. So, that was a lesson I learned in itself.

Michael: Yeah. Vulnerability, I literally just wrote this today. I was in my journal; it's how I start my days. I go out on the back patio here at the home office and I sit there with my journal and I read a book, and right now I'm reading a Course of Miracles and I'm sitting there and this word vulnerability just starts popping in my head and I'm like in the journal and like talking about like this past relationship and this thing that I've been overcoming about recognizing forgiveness in myself in a deeper capacity, and forgiveness being for a lot of different things, man, for selling drugs to people when I was a kid, for cheating on my girlfriend, for stealing cars, forgiveness for not being the best leader, the best entrepreneur, again, those things I was taking for granted, the forgiveness for myself, for being a brother who communicated through violence like we talked at the top of the show because that's how I learned. And like, and then I realized as I'm like journaling and I'm in this, and this is literally, this morning was like, I wrote down vulnerability as the cornerstone human connection because vulnerability is the only space in which we actually can bond because there's so much posturing in the world, there's so much, I'm great and I'm perfect and bullsh*t, bullsh*t, bullsh*t. And you're like, but where are you a human? Where are you fallible? And like you said about the book, you should throw the books away on parenting. I'm like, you should probably throw away all the books. Right? Because if you really want to heal, if you really want to grow, you have to be honest and vulnerable. And I think about that constantly. It's like, here you are for men especially, and we'll speak as men ‘cuz I'm not a man and you are too and I don't know what it's like to be a woman. And what I know as being a man is like, we are taught to not be vulnerable. We are taught to not share those stories that can change our children's lives. We are taught to suck it up and not be emotional and not walk into the world as a person who's hurt or wounded, but instead like, wear strong. It's like sometimes you're not motherfu*ker, sometimes you're just not. What role in this journey has vulnerability really played for you?

Charlie: Everything. I remember when I first got my start helping people, I was driving Uber and Lyft and I would tell everyone that story and what I did to help people. And so, I was literally healing people in the back of my f*cking Uber, eight minutes in whether they were like afraid of they had the fear of flying or something else happened. I was like, boom. Right on. Every single time. But I told that story first and you know what the one thing as a man being that vulnerable and telling that story, every single person, and I'm talking everyone, and mostly women were able to open up to me because I shared it first, I shared that I could be vulnerable. And so, when you have that connection to realize whether it's another man or it's a woman, but I definitely noticed in women that when I was able to share that vulnerability, they were willing to share things that they've never told anyone before. So, vulnerability is the key to everything to be the authentic human being that you're going to be and if you're truly in about serving and helping other people and you're able to be vulnerable, you will be able to serve and help other people because they will be vulnerable with you too. Just like you said when you went to the therapist's office, I'm gonna f*cking finally tell the truth for once, and then I bet it became more easier as it went to be vulnerable because you weren't being judged, or maybe things from childhood didn't come up because that person wasn't judging you because they were trying to help you.

Michael: Yeah. And it became a domino effect, right? Because this one moment, I mean, God, that must have been what 13 years ago now? Actually, it was 12 years ago, that one moment has led to this moment. And everything in between, that has been incredibly difficult. But the one thing I can tell you about it is it's allowed me the space to be me and not hide. And it's like, this is who I am, whether it's in podcasting or on stages, or dating in relationships, or like, this is me. And I'll share sometimes maybe overly, but I'm like, whatever, I'd rather you know, more than not knowing. And that whole thing is like, there is something I think beautiful that's happening just in the scope of humanity where the shift is happening, where we can actually have the conversations, where we can be emotional, where we can talk about the depths of this darkness. But I also realize like you can lead a horse to water. Right? And that's kind of the old adage, I can't force this out of anyone, I can't make anyone sit and do anything that I can't do for me first. And so, when you're leading and you're serving, so much of it is, is like, yeah, this is my story. Now I will say this, just full transparency, there's things I will never tell another human being on this podcast. It just won't happen. I don't believe those things serve humanity in any practical way, they are things that I've worked through that I've gone to therapy and healed over. I just don't feel like they're gonna benefit it. And maybe I'm wrong, you know what I mean? I think about that too. I go, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that thing that happened would benefit one person who could possibly ever relate. But I think that in the day-to-day of this, the more vulnerable we can be, the more freedom we're gonna have. What role has vulnerability played for you and the relationship with your children?

Charlie: Yeah, I don't know, because it's like, I don't wanna say the word normal I don't really like that word ‘cuz there is really no normal. But with everything that my kids went through, and how much they shut down and how much they wouldn't share. But the one thing I did notice is that when I stopped caring, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but when I stopped putting emotion behind the things that my kids told me or may have been afraid to share with me, ‘cuz they thought that I would judge them or I would say anything and I wouldn't. So, I stopped having any emotion to it and I would turn the question back to them I'm like, well how does that make you feel? And since I started doing that, since I stopped reacting to what they told me, rather than just listening and asked them questions on if it's how you feel about it or are you okay with it? Whatever that may be, they share anything with me, they don't hold anything back ‘cuz I stopped putting emotion behind the things that they were telling me to get them to. Because when I put emotion into it, get angry or upset or whatever, start raising my voice. What are they gonna do? Shut down, they're not gonna share with you. So I stopped putting emotion to what they told me and validated how they were feeling, there's nothing that they hide from me.

Michael: Do you think that your reactions to those things were like ego driven? I think they were actually; they were trauma driven because you learn programming happens at a young age and you see your parents fighting back and forth for the longest time. I remember getting in relationships ‘cuz I'd always see my mom and dad fighting or arguing about money or whatever. And I remember for the longest time when I would get upset or mad, I would yell and scream because that's what my parents did. So, when I stopped putting emotion into it, like I don't have to yell and scream, I can talk to you just like this and ask you questions without putting emotional tone to it, it's so much easier and it's so much easier and better to communicate with somebody without having emotion.

Michael: I would caveat that, like having negative emotion, not to put words in your mouth, but that's what came to mind. I remember having this really distinct shift one day pinning into what you just said, I was seeing this woman, I'm like 26 at the time, 27 so it's right around the beginning of this healing journey. And all we did was yell at each other's all we did, like we drank and we had sex and we yelled at each other, that was the whole relationship. And I remember one day I was like, I don't like the way this feels, I don't like yelling, I actually hate it. It's my number one, it's a hard-line negotiable. You're not allowed to yell at me ever and I won't yell at you and have a rule. You do it one time. We're gonna sit down and we're gonna talk about it. There will not be a second time ‘cuz I realize like you have the ability to either control your emotions or your emotions control you. This is a very, very distinct and fine line ‘cuz you have to be able to name them, to look at them, to be honest about them. And I think that's one of the things we battle with most, difficultly with the most difficulty is just naming it. Why are you mad? Why are you crying? Why do you want to punch a hole through the wall right now? Right? And not run from it. What was your journey like from running, from emotions to stepping into them and allowing them to exist?

Charlie: Scary, because you had to change it. So, if you're sitting there and it's like you're used to doing something a normal way or your normal way, whether it's yelling or screaming or arguing, whatever it may be to have to realize, well, like you said, I don't like yelling and screaming at my kids. Why am I even doing this? You know, to get to that point of realizing, getting to the point where you can consciously say, okay, are you getting upset? Like before, even now, I've just programmed myself, right? Like before it's like I had to consciously think, okay, hold on, stop. Let's talk about this. Don't start screaming now. It's like, I don't have any emotion’, they could tell me anything and I'm like, not gonna have any emotion about it. I'm like, okay, how does that make you feel? And I may even joke around with it and say something funny just to put 'em in a better mood or like I said, share a story with them about what happened with me.

So, that vulnerability, that ability to change who you are and if you don't like who you are, you know, I started making a list of all these things that I was doing that was not serving not only me, but the relationships I was in. And so when I did that, I'm like, oh my God, you write it on paper, it's like, holy sh*t, it's all negative versus you can't think of anything positive. So, you start with one. You start with one thing, and you just start working on it. And there's no wrong or right reason to work on it, right? Like, we fail at it. Okay, this didn't work. Okay, I'm gonna try it this way. And then as you get those wins, it's easier to transpose all those negatives over into more positive wins because you taught yourself that consciously and now it's a habit.

Michael: I think about how you leverage positivity every day. And I'm not an optimist, I'm not a negative, I'm just a realist. Look at life, try to be very neutral about it. I've lost my three best friends, they were murdered. My closest best friend close as a brother, Seth he and I literally did everything together. And when he was murdered, I remember distinctly just being mad. And all of the things, the feelings, the emotions that I had about him and our relationship were all bathed in negativity. And then I started thinking a few years ago on an anniversary, I think it was the seventh anniversary of his death. I was thinking to myself like, I did everything with this guy from the time we were f*cking 12 years old, might have been 11, 12 years old, till we were 20. Everything all the time, man. A lot of firsts was with this guy, they have a hat too, that we got together. And I started thinking about where's the positive memories I had with Seth? Where are the things that, where we did and had these experiences were beautiful and great and powerful and life affirming. And I just started thinking about it day in, day in day in ‘cuz it's really easy when we lose people to bathe in the negative. And so, I'm really curious, what is one of your favorite positive memories of Christopher?

Charlie: I remember when I was coaching him in football and I was teaching the kids like how to do a snap, right? So, he got down and he was the center, and as soon as they put my hands down there to snap the ball, he farted and everyone started laughing, it was funny. It was hilarious. That was just one memory that was really, really funny. But I remember another memory, like I said, I went to an all-boys Jesuit high school up in Milwaukee and he applied for it too. When I went out to the mail, and this was his eighth-grade year, so this is the year that he passed away. I remember going out to the mail and seeing the envelope, I didn't even let him open and I ripped it open and I come running into the house I'm like, Chris, you got in, you got in. Like, he scored like a 97% on the entrance exam. I was like so excited as a father and so proud of him. I know he was supposed to open it, but I was just so excited that I ran in and he actually, him and his mom were laughing at me because she's like, why'd you let him open it? So, you're more excited than he is.

Michael: We take lessons away from every person that we meet. People on the street and elevators, our family, our friends, our spouses, but especially the people that impact our lives the most. And so, what's one lesson that you think Christopher has taught you?

Charlie: The lesson that Chris taught me is that I need to feel pain in other people to realize that they're hurting and that pain motivates me to serve and help other people. So, it's kind of like, because he passed away, I need to feel that pain, but it motivates me to serve and help other people. And I believe this is my true calling ‘cuz when I can make an impact in somebody's life, it is the best feeling in the world to know that I was able to help them just a little bit or a lot, whatever it is. But I would not have that if it wasn't for Christopher. So, that is like the biggest gift that he gave to me.

Michael: That's powerful. I resonate with that so much. I mean, without all of the pain, it would not be here. And when it comes back to that concept, turn your pain into purpose and sometimes the pain is really, really, really painful. But if you leverage, it can change your life forever. Charlie, it's been an amazing conversation my friend. Before I ask you the last question, can you tell everybody where they can find you and learn more about you?

Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. You can go to my website. It's charlieraythehealer.com So, if you go on there, it's otherwise on social media, it's Coach Charlie Ray.

Michael: Amazing. And of course, guys, go to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com. Look up Charlie's episode where we'll have this and more in the show notes. Of course, we have a tradition on this show. We end with a question I've asked hundreds and hundreds of people, and I'll ask you as well, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Charlie: Take your pains that you have in life and leverage it to be better, because those are all of our lessons. Everything that we do in life, we're learning but the stuff that's painful, that can be the greatest gift that you ever get but you gotta take that pain and leverage it. And that's what it means to be unbroken.

Michael: Beautifully said, my friend. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation, thank you for listening. Please check us out on YouTube, Spotify, apple Podcast, wherever you get your shows. Do us a favor, share this with a friend and somebody special to you so that we can continue to step forward in healing the world, ending generational trauma, transforming trauma to triumph, breakdowns to breakthroughs, and to continue to help people become the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time.

My Friends, Be Unbroken.

I'll See You.