The Self-Made Success of John Cerasani: Business, Investing, and Life Lessons

 Michael: Hey, what's up Unbroken Nation! Hope that you're doing well wherever you are in the world today. I'm very excited to be back with you with another episode with my guest and friend, John Cerasani. John, my man, what is happening in your world today?

John: Happy to be here, my friend. I've been looking forward to this all week, and uh, here we are, it's upon us.

 Michael: Yeah, dude, I've been pumped. You and I connected through a mutual amazing friend in David Meltzer, for me, and I would assume for you is a bit of a mentor and a mensch as we were talking about before the show. But before we dive into all this, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today?

John:   You got it man. I grew up in Suburban Chicago was a good football player, ended up playing college football at University of Notre Dame played tight end there. Finished my career at Northwestern University and injury from stopped me from moving on to play in the NFL. So, I was able to transfer my energy into white collar America and all that competitive spirit from my football days. I transitioned into doing well in a competitive environment in sales, got into the insurance industry, started to prosper. And then a light bulb went off around about year six in that industry. Amen. I could do this on my own. I don't need to be working here to do this. I'm gonna go start my own company and compete with the likes of my employers. I did just that, started it from my kitchen table went after the same accounts that the big publicly traded companies were going after, people that have been established in the industry for years, and I prospered, I won more than I lost and got the attention of a private equity firm that bought my company less than 10 years later, you know, the rest is kind of history. I was able to sail off into the sunset and came really from a middle-class background and really changed my family's lineage from a financial perspective for the following generations as a result of the story I just told you. Michael, I tried, I tried to retire my friend and do nothing. What I decided was I definitely wasn't going to be going back into insurance. I knew that much, but we only got one life to live so, I decided I'm going to be a venture capitalist. I always have kinda dabbled with angel investing and just unique alternative investments like bars or restaurants or I've invested in a musical one, just kinda, and you know, hey, why not? Why not bring some capital to that community that needs it? And also, some advisement as well, decided I'm gonna found Gwen Crutch Global, which is my early-stage venture capital firm and our thesis is simple, if I think it's cool or interesting on me partnering with you, if I think it's boring or hey man, insurance was lucrative for me, dude, but not the most exciting dinner conversation. So, this next chapter of my life, I really want to get into things that are fun and been doing that for a few years now and I could tell you, I've accomplished that part of it. Now, whether these investments pay off or not, Michael that's to be determined cuz we are early stage it takes a while to, for them to come to fruition. But I'm definitely involved in some cool shit that that is for sure.

 Michael: Yeah, that's awesome dude. And you know, I think about anything that we invest in, I mean, the ROI on experience alone is typically worth it. Right. You know, it's funny cuz we get so caught up in the money side of what it means to become the people that we're supposed to be and much like you, it’s really interesting man, is I landed a job with a Fortune 10 insurance company at 20 years old. And by the time that I was 26, I had made almost a million bucks, 50 grand in debt, 350 pounds like I've said it ad nauseum on this show, but one of the things that I realized is I was driven to money for the wrong reasons like I had this idea and this notion like, oh yeah, when I get financial success, everything will be better. And then I actually learned like, that's not how life works, money only tends to bring out more of who you are in the time that you are that. And so, what I'm curious about is now that you're pivoting and you're looking at impacting the world for better. And I wanna start here ‘cuz I think it's important. I think a lot of people have a really misconstrued relationship with money, right? We look at it and we say, oh, I don't have enough, or I can't get enough, or this or that but you were able to sell a company. I would have to imagine that your relationship with money changed from, I'm gonna do this on my own from my kitchen table making $0. ‘cuz that's where all entrepreneurs start to selling it. And I'd love for you to talk about that journey, especially with losing out on the NFL. I don't wanna use losing out, but you know what I mean.

John: Right. Well, it was an interesting time, man. It was an interesting time because I was definitely and I'm not just saying this anybody that played with me or followed my career closely back then would know that I was good enough to play in the NFL an injury just stopped me from doing it. I wasn't gonna be, you know, Peyton Manning or something, but I definitely would've been like a fourth or fifth rounds draft pick and definitely would've bounced around in the league for a couple years. So, you know, during this time while I was working in insurance, you know, I worked at a company called Arthur J. Gallagher, which is an insurance giant, big, they're based outta Chicago, but they're an international company and I'm learning the trade and my career's starting to blossom. But every Sunday I'm watching TV and I'm seeing guys that I played against, or guys that I played with that I was just as good as, you know, getting that fame playing on the Cowboys or the Bears or the, you know, whomever. And for a little part of me, ah, man, I should have just played and ignored this injury, you know, but it ended up being a huge blessing in disguise Michael, because by the time we were 30, nobody was playing football anymore. Now granted, I played against Tom Brady, actually we're about the same age he played at Michigan when I was at Northwestern, we played against each other he's still playing so, that's the anomaly, right? But for the most part, and the category I would've been in for almost certainly is by the time you're 30, your career's over, you ain't playing anymore. So, you know, what was I doing when I was 30? I was two years into this company I was building, I was two years into this empire I was building whereas a lot of my friends, we're getting entry level jobs entering the real world now. Yes, some of them had a million-dollar nest egg behind it ‘cuz they were able to be smart enough to save some money in the NFL. But a lot of them didn't, a lot of 'em barely, you know, were able to scrap anything together. So, from that regard, you know, the NFL part of your question, it was almost a paradigm shift, man, and you know, it ended up really being a blessing and you know, that's just the way it was. It wasn't until I was 40 that I started kind of wishing I played again, you know what I mean? Get that midlife crisis. But at the time, I kind of knew it for what it was. And you know, because another thing with the NFL man. These guys, I had a friend of mine who played on the Rams, those contracts suck, you get caught, you're off the team, you're on injured reserve. He had to work construction jobs in the office. He to pay the damn bills. He didn't know what team he was gonna be on. And he was a good ass football player. Man. You talk about a competitive industry, I mean, that's as competitive as it gets, bro. So, I talked earlier about transferring that energy to my career, and I continued to do that once I started my company. And it really just kept hockey sticking, you know, almost immediately and just kept going up and I really had no intention of ever selling the company Michael. you know, it was just doing great. And private equity, got into that space and really changed the game had private equity not entered that insurance space, I probably never would've sold it, it did put me in a positional though to, you know, reevaluate what we're here on this planet for. Hey man, listen, they're gonna pay you, what it's gonna take you about the next 15 years to make with this private equity firm coming in. You don't gotta work the 15 years, so you're gonna be set for life here, you don't have to do shit. Okay, well what am I gonna do with my life then? And it was that reevaluation that I think really was a pivotal time for me and my friend.

 Michael: When you have that, I think, and I look back, I'm at this company, I'm 26 on paper life looks amazing cuz, I mean, I'm clearing an ungodly amount of money for a kid from the hood with no education. Right. And it's like, shit looks good dude., cars dope, clothes are dope, but in reality, like my life is a disaster. And I had this pivotal moment where I had to make a decision I was like, okay, what do you really want? Who do you really wanna be and what are you willing to do to get there? And I think that a lot of that for me came in this space of recognizing what you just said it was like, life is short. Like there is a timeline on this and there is something about the risk that we take that I believe is the cornerstone to our life transforming. And so, I'm in this job, I'm making this money, I'm looking at my life and I'm in debt at this point and I was like, you know what? I hate my life. I hate wearing khakis to work every day, this is nonsense is not who I am. And I hate water cooler talking, being nice to people for no reason, not that you shouldn't be nice to people, but you know, water cooler talk. I'm like, I fucking can't stand this. And so, I quit. And when I started my first legal business, let's be clear, it was legal at this time. And so, what happened was it took me from struggling, not making any money to, I actually paid off that debt within three years ‘cuz I was like, I'm gonna take the risk, I'm going to see what happens. And so, I'm wondering, when you are in this position of, you're working at this insurance company, you realize you have the light bulb moment and you decide to take the risk, why? Because so many people, they're like, man, I know I can do this better. I know I can create this. I know I can have this life, but they're terrified to do the thing. So, what transpired for you, John, where you're like, you know what, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna see what happens?

John:  Yeah. Well, what was interesting was, you know, you get brainwashed, I believe in corporate America and you start drinking the Kool-Aid and you keep drinking it and you look for outlets, okay, wait a minute, this don't seem right. The only people you have to ask or to reflect on this with are other people that have been drinking the same Kool-Aid as you. And when you're 25, you got 40-year-olds next year, or 50-year-olds next to you that have been drinking it longer than you. So, yeah, shouldn't we just like, we can do this shit on our own, shouldn't gonna start our own company. No. You'll never get any clients. Nah. Well, they have to give you that advice because if they didn't, they'd be admitting, they screwed it up. Oh, you know what, John? Yeah. You know what? You should go quit this job that I've been at for 20 years and you should go make triple what I make because I'm a dumb ass and was scared to do it. No, like even if they were nice enough person to tell you that they don't see it that way, it's not like they're holding back because they want, Hey, screw you. I don't want, it's not an ego thing, they literally don't see it that way. So, I would start peeling back the onion, wait a minute guy, wait a minute. Ah. I don't even hand off half the shit I do to the account management team because I know they're not gonna do it as well as I do, they're not responding to emails for two days because they're taking two-hour fricking lunches. When I'm replying at 9:00 PM on a Friday damn night, I'm going to visit clients in person driving two hours, they're looking for every reason in the world they can to let's make it a phone conference ‘cause we didn't do Zoom back then. Right. And I'm just thinking to myself, you know why am I adapting to this environment that's gonna bring my standard down? So I got all these damn people around me trying to convince me, no, man, the client's gonna want this company, we've been in business for a hundred years, we got 20,000 employees, you know that no client's gonna work with you, you'd have to go downstream, let's maybe work with like tiny little employers, like maybe hair salons. No, man, I'm gonna work with the same damn clients. Okay. That I'm working with there. Well, they'll never work with you. Why? It's about the client deliverable. The client deliverable that they're getting right now with me working here, 19,999 of these employees on my team don't do shit on your account. Okay? And guess what? They don't have a hundred years of experience, they have six years of experience, that's me. You know what I mean? So, if I could leave, and get clients to see it that way. Okay. I'm gonna be able to bring a better deliverable to the client. You know why? Because in this environment, in corporate America, they're incenting me with money, they're incenting me with commission, I gotta just put more and more volume, stretch myself. Okay, maybe I'm gonna make a quarter million dollars one day. Yeah, let's go. I would've had to stretch myself with so many damn clients to get there that innately they're gonna get shittier version of John as a result of that. And I would have to scale because of that environment that's been created in corporate America, I would have to scale and give them some of these deliverables to someone that's not gonna do it as well as me. So why don't I go start my own damn company? I could replace that 250 grand I was making there just by having a fraction of those clients, you follow me? And then as I do scale, which I eventually did there's gonna be quality control components on the way there that person going for a two-hour launch, or that person, you know, that gets an email at 6:00 PM on Thursday and then replies at 11:00 AM Monday to a client, letting them know that they're looking into it. Yeah, that person ain't gonna work for me. Okay. You know what I mean? So, I found a way that I could have a huge financial gain for myself and give a better service to the client and you know what's crazy about it, man, the two things will go hand in fricking hand, you know what I mean? The client, the client, see it this way and you know, I will be rewarded. So, you know that's the way it went down, man, it worked out, it's hard getting those first few in, but once we got rolling, we got rolling.

 Michael: Yeah. And it's always difficult at the beginning because I think people believe that when they go and create something that suddenly it'll just work and nothing ever works out. Like I think about this podcast, for instance, right? You know, we're over 500 shows, we've interviewed some of the greatest minds on planet Earth, we've been able to build giant conferences and events with thousands of people, we've coached thousands of people in our community coaching programs, all of those things. But man, I'll tell you what, at the beginning, nobody listened. Right. You know, the first month, I'll never forget this, the first month we did 19 downloads for the whole month, the first month, 19 downloads, 12 of those were for sure me. Right. Listening. Did it good. Was that good? Was the audio sucked? Did I say the wrong thing? Blah, blah, blah. And today, I mean, we'll do a million downloads this year. And so much of it is perseverance, it's being persistent, it's following your dream because John, I guarantee I do not even have to know exactly what happened, and I can look at this story I go, there were people who told you not to do this.

John: Oh yeah. For sure.

 Michael: And the reality is there always are going to be people who tell you, do not follow your dream. Don't do that thing. How do you do it anyway, John? Because there are people right now and they're like, man, I got this dream not even about entrepreneurship or money, but you know, I wanna go do a dance class, or I want to go do Jiujitsu or Muay Thai, and they're just like terrified to just follow the thing that'll go is gonna bring them joy, how do you do it anyway, John?

  John: Yeah. Well, for me, from a business standpoint, it was a calculated risk because I was really able to learn the industry and look everything, look through everything inside and out, inside and out and you know, even though people were telling me I'm crazy, I was able to do fricking math. I guess what, I didn't need every single client. I didn't need every client to say yes, I needed about, a third of 'em to say, yes, I don't need to sell as much as I did over there to make this thing work, and that it did. But really what I discovered Michael, I think is where really, where more were your questions going, you know? It wasn't just the financial rewards; it was the building of my entrepreneurial spirit. So, what it gave me was this freedom to understand, holy crap, man, you could do this. I always had that entrepreneurial spirit in me, but it wasn't even like on the radar to do this as an adult with an insurance company, are you crazy? This was for like when I was in college with side hustles. Yeah. I had a concert company, a promotion company and shit like that. These were John Cerasani side hustles that yeah, man, you could do that shit, but like, to do it in the real world, competing against people that are smart. I mean, whoa, so, you know, I discovered that when maybe I did it firstly for the financial upside. I discovered like, okay, you know what? This is me, man, this is me. And I think if anyone identifies something in their life, you know, where, gosh, you know, like the examples, you just gave a hobby or whatever. Maybe it's going and finding somebody that you haven't talked to in 20 years and getting the courage to do that, whatever the case may be, you know, in instead of why, you know, why not? Like, what is the downside here? You know what I mean? If you go practice jiu-jitsu or like, I see guys at my gym, Michael doing Muay Thai, and I'm like, I won't make it through fricking warmups on that shit. Okay. I'm not flexible enough, but you know what, man? If I wanted to go do fricking Muay Thai, what's the downside? You know what I mean? Like, go try, it didn't work out it didn't freaking work out. You know, I think we live in a society right now at least, that a lot more welcoming than it was maybe 25 years ago in terms of encouraging people to do things. I have a 14-year-old son and I had a conversation with him the other day. I won't get specific, but there was a kid that's maybe like, you know, special needs in one of his classes and they asked him to be in his group pick like hand-picked my son and another kid to be in his group to just include him in the study group cuz nobody probably would've included the kid or the teacher was worried about that, that the kid didn't have any friends in the class. And I said, but you know, that’s a big compliment Jake and he didn't really understand why that was a compliment and kinda was asking, well, what do you mean that's a compliment? I go, the teacher picked you to that she sees something in you that you would be, and he didn't understand it. And I said, and he's 14, he's not like a little kid, he really didn't understand it. And I said to him, ‘cause maybe there's kids that would've picked on 'em or made fun of 'em or whatever, or just not done that. And he goes, dad, it's 2022, nobody makes fun of kids like that anymore, I'm like, you know what? I'm glad he sees it that way, I don't know if he's a hundred percent accurate or not, but it was kind of like a proud moment. I went from thinking my son didn't get it to, no, I didn't get it, you know what I mean? It was kind of cool moment but that I have a long way to answer your question there, buddy.

Michael: No, that's an interesting thought man. And I think you're right and we do live in a world that is not only more accommodating, but also when and I'll say this because I think there's a caveat to it. When you are around the right people, they will want you to be successful. And when I think about my group of friends, my peers, my mentors, people like you where I meet, and it's like we're in this same room for a reason like, dude, I want you to succeed. I want you to have great things. You want that of me. When you're in the wrong scenarios and in the wrong friendships, in the wrong communities, people are gonna wanna pull you down, they're gonna want to be like, hey man, you better not do that or, Hey, I tried this, it didn't work or this or that. And I think that that's one of the really interesting dichotomies of the time that we live, because on this one hand yeah, you for sure have so much opportunity and so much potential in front of you. And on the other hand, it's like if you are around the wrong damn people, you will never see it come to fruition, ‘cuz they're always gonna be in your ear. And I think the most important thing that you can do is to do it anyway. Right. I mean, if you play it through, what's the worst that could happen if you tried to play football, you'll get an injury. What's the worst that could happen? If you start a business, you might go bankrupt. What's the worst that could happen if you do whatever, then it's like, but then at some point on the timeline, the worst thing that could happen to you already happened, so you might as well try. When you think about the future, when you think about your life and what is important. What do you think are the most life-changing lessons that you've learned in your willingness to bet on yourself?

 John: Hmm. Interesting. There's a couple things that come to mind, really I had a coach in college that ingrained, and it's a little bit cliche, but it resonated with me and I reflect on it from time to time. Said, don't point the finger, point the thumb. And his point with that, he was talking specifically to me too, we had a couple, let's say episodes of adversity in college, Danny and that's a nice way to put it. And he said, no, John, you know, it's not like you keep defending yourself, well, this shit keeps coming up. At some point you gotta look in the mirror. Start pointing the thumb instead of the pointing the finger. You know, you hear this once, you hear it twice, guess what? You gotta start looking in the mirror at yourself. So, I think that was kind of a moment in my life where I looked at, hey, just gotta take a bull by the damn horns here, man, it's so easy for all of us, right? It's so easy for all of us to blame our circumstances on other people, it's so easy to be pissed at the world. And even on a micro level, like, you hear stories like yours, Michael, or you hear stories not even nearly as great as yours, but like a story like mine where I'm overcoming, okay, I thought I was gonna play in the NFL, now I don't, oh shit, I gotta get a job. Okay. That's like a challenging time in your life, but like, to do something positive and not blame anyone like in the smaller facets, the big ones like that, okay, let's draw attention to that. But like, I don't know, man, I don't like being around people that are constantly just like blaming everyone for their fricking situation, you know what I mean? Like, I freaking like, oh, I was at this party and I freaking spilled wine all over this white couch. Well, they shouldn't have been serving red wine at their party with a white car and many people, you know what I mean? Which is real, though. People wouldn't literal think totally. You know what I mean? I'm at a freaking party. The other freaking day, it was my friends, I'm not gonna be specific, but it was a surprise party and someone bitching that it was in their clubhouse instead of at like a bar, they go, why would they do it here? They, so I don't know anybody and shut the hell up. God damn. Like, shut up. You know what I mean? It's just like, I try my best to avoid stuff like that, sometimes I'll find myself being in the middle of that shit too and I'll try to have that self-awareness. Wait a minute, I'm participating in this pull yourself out, you know what I mean?

Michael: Yeah. So that's an interesting point and I think you're spot on, man, because it's self-accountability. And I think that's a great lesson to learn especially young while you're in college, but probably at any time because there is truth. I mean yeah, man. Like life is hard sometimes. Like life will kick you while you are down and it will rain on your parade and it will fill insurmountable. But what certain interesting is like, I'll rewind some scenarios, look at what is happening. I'll just sit back and I'll pause with it. Right. And I'll just ask myself what is actually happening now? Is this as bad as I'm portraying it to be? Did I play a role in this, John? 99% of the time I did? And then, what can I do about it? What can I do about it? And I think accountability is such an important lesson in life because it is pointing, the finger is so simple. You lose accountability, oh, it's your fault that my life is terrible, it's their fault that nothing is worried working for me, it's everyone else but me. When you get to that place of, wait a second, I play a role in this too, it’s kind of like a baseball bat to the face because if you're anything like how I was when I recognized this at 26 years old, I was like, oh, I play a role in my life as well.

John: Yep. And I gotta tell you, man, even to this day, ‘cuz I'll have peers, bro, that I came up with in the insurance industry, bringing this back to business a little bit, I'll peers are doing the exact same job that I quit. Okay. But you know, they'll give you kind of that backhanded compliment here and there dude, your kind of lucky how that unfold the congratulations, dude. You got so lucky with how that did and just kind of throwing like a little jab like you didn't, no, dude. You know what? I was pointing the freaking thumb instead of the damn finger, and I was at work till 8:00 PM Oh. We weren't allowed to bring laptops home back then. And you know what I would do? I'd go into the office at Saturday morning and then go back at 4:00 PM on Saturday to check to see if anyone responded to the emails ‘cause we didn't have blackberries yet. Okay. That's the shit I was doing. What were you doing? You know what I mean? So, like that mindset where it has a positive connotation too, you know? Get rid of the negativity, but also put it on yourself. Okay. What have you been successful with? Because you've taken the bull by the horns and dumb this on your own. And it comes to fruition for me, I don't say it out loud to the people, but I'll have people like I just said, you know, give me those kinds of backhanded compliments and it's like, okay, yeah, dude, remember when you were leaving work at 4:30 on Fridays? Yeah. I wasn't, I keep that to myself though.

Michael: Yeah. There is some level to the, you used a phrase stretching yourself a little bit ago. And there's truth in that, you know, and I think about what I see myself accomplish, what our coaching clients and our coaching programs accomplish and it's so many of these people are just willing to go the next level, go the extra mile, do the thing that sucks because like a lot of times it sucks, man, it sucks to wake up and meditate and journal and to do the somatic things that you need to do to get inside of your body. It sucks to work on programs and events at 10 o'clock at night, but you know, also it's the same time, it's like, what is your goal? What is your perfect? What are you trying to accomplish? When you look at your life and what is next, one of the things that I think about for myself is like, I know I can't get to where I want to go without mentorship and coaching. And so, I'm curious for you, what role does that play in your life and is it helping you go to where you believe that you want to go in the future?

John: You know, that's a great question and it's something I need to explore further than I have not gone that direction at all, I've actually gone this other direction where I've asked people to be a mentor. People have asked me to be a mentor for them, usually from a business standpoint. But I haven't leaned on other people. Now, what I have done is drawn on experiences that I've tried to learn from and I've tried to take into account the principles we talked about earlier, like, not blaming other people for things happening. And I'll give you a quick for instance, all right. Oh, you know, that's my second cousin, oh, we only see them at weddings and funerals and whatever. Have you invited them to dinner? They haven't invited you to dinner either, when have you invited them? You know what I mean? Like take that kind of role, hey, this is family, this is someone that's important to me. So, one of the things I've started doing in 2022 is on the first of each month, I have a list of things I wanna make sure I can accomplish that month and some are business related, some are personal related, some are health and wellness related. And a couple of them involved reaching out to people that I haven't spoken to in a while, someone that had some kind of significant impact on my life. And it could be a colleague, a business associate and there's one category, another category is family. I keep myself fresh, Michael in those kinds of conversations where, okay, you know what? I do remember now why this guy was such a significant part of my life from 2007 to 2012. Okay. Having this two-hour conversation with him, even though we haven't talked to each other other than LinkedIn and Facebook posts for the last 12 years, you know what? That memory, Oh god, that was good, those experiences were great. Okay. Am I still that person? Have I drawn on any of that for this next phase of my life that I'm in right now? So I do feel like I have growth from things like that but I have not, I have not prospered at this point from a coaching or mentorship standpoint.

Michael: Yeah. But it sounds like you have, but maybe not in such a direct way. Right? Because we're always learning, right? We're always, you know, they're in the insurance thing, there must have been people who helped and guided you just in the context of what you were in, right?

John: Yeah. This is what, not to follow me, this is what not to do, that's kinda how they guided me, but anyway…

Michael: Well, but still I let, plays a huge role because I've seen that in my own personal life and journey and in the way that I coach people and in the way that we've been able to build Think Unbroken and it's a lot of that is like I've looked at what I really hate in personal development. And I said, I'm gonna do the opposite of that, I'm gonna bring value, we're gonna help people, we're gonna not charge 10 million for you to come into a program or a course. Right. We're gonna make it accessible. And so, I think there is a lot to that, like learning through what other people either don't do or you believe they've done incredibly wrong, which I think is, it's just a part of assessing reality. Right. And looking at it.

John: You know what's really interesting about you saying that? So, over the last probably year and a half, I just started building up my social media following and I put out like business related reels and TikToks. And I've had a number of people just send me messages telling me that I'm different than everyone else doing what they're, what I'm doing. And everyone kind of just assumes I'm selling some kind of program or whatever and I'm not, I'm just genuinely doing this stuff as information for the masses. And I find it entertaining and it's fun for me to do. But I think, and then as I've looked at growing that more seriously and maybe making a business out of it, Michael, what's the first thing I do? Start looking at what everyone else is doing. The people that are successful and that space is doing, when I have people drawn to me already that are liking me, ‘cuz I don't do what everyone else is doing. You know what I mean? So, it's kind of that conundrum, right?

Michael: Yeah, it is. And I think there's some arenas in which you definitely want to model, right? And then there's some spaces where you have to be you. You know, and I think the personality, especially if we go down the social media path, tends to shine through more because as many people are carbon copies of each other, you know, when you look at it, you can see it. And as people become more aware and they really understand how social media works, it becomes more and more clear to them at least it comes more and more clear to me where I'm like, oh, this person's putting on a front, they're not really about whatever they're talking about. And I think that just comes with the territory of it all, you know? And I think that if you continue to put yourself out there because of what you want, I love that you said that it's cause it's fun and because it's enjoyable ‘cuz I want to do it. It's like, dude, if we could give people a magic pill to have that experience. My God. How their life would be different.

John: Right. Right. Exactly. And I think it shines through, right? Like it just, people could you see that it's genuine, you see that it's genuine. And so I got that going for me at the moment, what I'm gonna do with this information I'm not sure of but I can say that I am being sincere in anything I put out.

Michael: Yeah, and I definitely watch a lot of what you put out there and I think to myself, man, he's putting out some good stuff, so people should definitely check it out. John my friend this been amazing conversation, brother, before I ask you my last question, please tell everyone where they can find you?

 John: So, my podcast webpage and also my book will be coming out, 2000percentraise.com. But in the meantime, social media, TikTok and Instagram is @johncerasani

Michael: Brilliant, my friend. Of course. We'll put the links in the notes for all the listeners. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be Unbroken?

John: Here's what I love about that question. I've watched your show. I know you're gonna ask me it, and I still don't have a great answer. And the reason, it's not that I don't have an answer, it's like I have 50 answers, I have 50 great answers, you know what I mean? That's such a provocative question, Michael and I love that you end your show with it better than how I end my show asking people what their favorite movie is. What does it mean to me to be unbroken, I would say that the overcoming of adversity whether big or whether small, nothing's ever as bad as it seems, usually things aren't as great as they seem, keeping an even keel tomorrow's always a new day.

Michael: Yeah, brilliantly said, man. I totally agree. The meaning we make of our experiences is truly everything. Thank you so much for being here. Unbroken Nation. Thank you for listening.

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