These Stories Will Help You Redefine Success, Discover Resilience, and Have New Transformations

CHANGE and Break Free From Fear | with Sam Taggart

Michael: When we hold on tight, I think about this all the time. If you hold sand in your hand, you just let it be, it will be. But you close your hand, you try to grip it, you try to control it, you will lose all of it. And to me, the thing that I've discovered is you can control what you can control. Let's be very, very clear about that. But the other pieces, the outliers in your life, your story, your journey, the more you try to control variables that you cannot control, the more disastrous your life becomes. Now, I think one of the things that I feared most, looking at this through my own scope and my own lens, is the identity of playing the role of victim, the identity of playing, the role of corporate guy, the identity of playing the role of, you know, six, four, tattooed, dude, like whatever that was those were my identities. Letting go of those identities and just allowing fluidity, which I think is a really beautiful way to phrase this journey, allowing fluidity to be the thing that actually is my life, set me free. However, getting there that in its own right, was a journey, how did you get here?

Sam: Yeah, so I did door to door sales my whole life, which I'm gonna kind of run the analogy of kind of this carnivore hunter, 1099, entrepreneur type worlds, and it helped me cuz I think a lot of people take the W2 route like I sold curbs through high school, then I did alarm sales in Texas, then I did solar sales. And so I've always had to eat what I kill and then I started to realize life is much more that way than you think in all aspects whether it's fitness, family, relationship, like, whatever it is. It's like every opportunity you want and to get to me where I'm at, where I've got a lot of money and have a good life and have a cool couple businesses and is being willing to go knock the door. It's just going to be and say, I wanna start a company, I'm gonna go knock the doors and figure out how to go start the company. Or I want to go build an app, I wanna go knock some developer’s doors and figure out what, which ones are good, and sell 'em on discounts and pay 'em and figure it out. Right? Like, I'm a resourceful human. I think a lot of times people are like, oh, how did this successful become successful? But they don't see, they see the highlight reels like we see the ESPN top 10 plays and this and that, but they're not showing the workouts that these guys are doing day in and day out in the gym twice a day. And they're just like showing the sweet dunk or the sweet touchdown pass or whatever, right? And I'm like, I keep knocking doors every freaking day, I'm constantly out there grinding and saying, hey, how do I go create the life that I want? And then find equanimity in like an equilibrium essentially between that like achievement where I'm like, I'm gonna go freaking chase after some awesome goals and do some cool things like writing books or selling big clients. Like yesterday we made a ton of money selling in this conference and it was like, that was a goal of mine, I was like, I wanna hit this number but I've been chasing that for a while, you know what I mean?

There's the element of alignment where I've watched myself get down the wrong path, and so that's taken some cool pivots where I've gone through a divorce and I've had, you know, lost hundreds of thousands of dollars with the wrong people and partners and had the moments of trials and just smacked down, you know what I mean? Like everybody else, like a lot of people look at me and they're like, oh, you're the privileged white kid that grew up in Park City. And I'm like, no, my parents didn't gimme sh*t like, yeah, I grew up in a really cool environment that was not the typical grew up in Brooklyn, in the Bronx and had no money like, but my parents had to teach me how to work and then I had to go through life's experience to get where I'm at. I think a lot of people get handheld to a certain point, and then at some point they get like dropped off and then it's like, oh crap, I gotta, like, I have to do some stuff. And I think that school of hard knocks that I went through my whole career gave me that resilience of getting knocked down, getting back up again, getting knocked down, getting up back up again and just that resilience nest taught me how to go achieve what I want.

Michael: I had the honor of getting to meet your parents at the event that you held. And I asked your dad a question, I don't know if you know I did this or not. I asked your dad a question I said, why are your children so successful? And success is relative, right? Let's be very clear about that. And he said, because I let them fail.

Sam: Yeah. He was the guy that was willing to be like I remember buying my first house. My dad was a broker, and I'm like, hey dad, can I use your brokerage and just keep the commissions and buy a house and he's like, no, well, will you co-sign on the loan? No. He's like, call a realtor and let them get their permission and it'll pay for itself because if you get a good realtor, he is gonna find the right deal and negotiate, pay for himself. I was like, well, and I had to go find a realtor on the internet, ended up getting hosed on the realtor. He lied to me a bunch, a bunch of stuff, and I kind of got into a bad situation on my first property, I was like, damnit. But then I'm like, okay, I went through that and I was resourceful and I figured out how to get financing without having I was a 1099, needed two years of tax returns like I had to figure out how to go get my first house where I watched parents today afraid to let their kids fail. And I'm like, thank you like I literally sent them a message three days ago and said, I really appreciate like how you just held space, watched us get our faces kicked in, and then loved and loved and loved us regardless, you know what I mean? On the winds, they love us and on the dark moments, they loved us and it was always love.

Michael: That's powerful. You know, being a father, having a family, what is something that you thought parenting was that it actually isn't?Sam: Okay, so I've had this moment of like, I thought parenting you see why parents kinda get depressed as the kids move out and they get so sad, it's so this and it's like, ah, they don't love me anymore. And I kind of had, that was the mentality of like, oh, like I'm their parents like forever, you know, and I am, I'm their dad like that won't ever change biologically I'm their dad. But I think, as I've grown up and got a different relationship with my parents, I'm realizing we are all souls just in different timelines and I just happen to steward these kids and I'm just have a responsibility over these kids for a short period of time in this whole eternity, right? And I'm putting them through a journey that's really small journey in comparison to their entire timeline, like their lifetime, let alone eternity and I just have to do a good job to hold space for them. But once they grow up, they're like, even now, they're their own souls through their own journeys and I don't control that, and I don't own that, I'm just holding space. And a lot of times I'm insecure like I look at my dad right now and I'm like, he needs love, he needs encouragement, he needs guidance, vision, challenge even though I'm how many years younger? And I'm like, we get insecure, we get intimidated to, we had a couple of our clients', parents and our employees' parents come to this conference. There's a 77-year-old dude there, there was an 80-year-old dude there yesterday. And I'm like, they're probably looking at me being like, who's this like weird little kid jumping up here on the stage and like blowing minds? And I'm like, they're looking for support too, just cuz they're 60 years old doesn't mean they got it all figured out. And we make assumptions of our parents and we make assumptions of our kids and there's a reason why Christ was always like, hey, be as a little child because they got things way more figured out sometimes than we think.

Overcoming Trauma and Building Your Dream Life with Matt Smith

Michael: I've been around and we won't name them, but I've been around many, many billionaires and many, many millionaires had dinners with them, been on planes with them, had them on this show, not pointing anyone specifically, just simply saying that you're right. And it's like, I often think, you know, if you make 50 grand a year, 75 grand a year and you're happy like you won and Vaynerchuk talks about that a lot. When I was on his show, it's like 10 years ago or something and I asked a question, I'm going to ask you the same question I asked him, ‘cuz you brought this up and it's really important. And he talks about this idea of just like, be happy. You kind of defined happiness, which I think is powerful. It is kind of like living life on your terms and being around people that you love, care about and doing something that fulfills you And I ask Gary a question and it changed my life actually, it's probably one of the very reasons I'm here today doing what I do. I said, Gary, how do you ask for help? So Matt, I'm curious like thinking about this and knowing these millionaires and billionaires and a lot of these guys who they're struggling mentally especially, you know, suicide rate and entrepreneurship is skyrocketing every single day ‘cuz people are like, I'm not a billionaire. I'm like, you're not going to be, right? How do you you ask for help? Like, how do you navigate the mental of all of this?

Matt: Yeah, it's a good question because I think that it is entrepreneurship is a very lonely game. You know, when you're at the top, you've got nobody to talk to and it is because your employees, you're not allowed to show weakness, you're not allowed to go into that office and not be like, it's going to be a great day. Let's go. And these fires are coming at you and your job is to keep them motivated and excited, you know what I mean? Because that is so, it is very lonely at the top. But I have a lot of coaches in my life like, seriously every Monday at eight o'clock, I meet with a life coach. I got business coaches for the franchising. I'm hiring another coach for personal, I'm hiring stage coaches right now, so I just believe that, you gotta ask for help and I mean, nobody's gonna do this by themselves, absolutely nobody.

What I keep learning is the person that I was last year that I was really good at is not the person that I need to be this year or next year, that was humbling ‘cuz I was really good at running a business in Pueblo. I was great at inspiring people and finding the best in them and pushing them to the next level when I could do this. But as I've started to grow, I can't do this anymore. So now I have to depend on this guy to do that and it doesn't work the same, it's a whole different lane in systems. So, creating those systems is, I'm getting help like I ask for help all the time, but I'm also I think that probably goes back to me being raised by a woman, I don't care about asking for help. I have no pride in life. Like, I'm the easy guy that's like, I'll throw, I'll cry right here in front of everybody and tell you my life, and I'll go ask somebody that I just met today for help ‘cuz I'm not that normal manly guy that's like, no, I'm not, you know. So, maybe that's another blessing with me is like, I love coaches and finding people smarter than me to learn from every single day. And I think, most of the people on my team are smarter than me, you know what I mean? And I think that I don't have a problem asking for help personally, I guess so, I get as much help as I can.

Michael: How has been able to do that impacted your relationship with your wife and your children? 

Matt: It's everything. You know, I think it's vulnerability. I think so many people are scared to be vulnerable in this day and when you are vulnerable, you make a difference.  And people, like everybody's been through something that you've been through, not everybody, but there's so many people that you can touch. But when you can finally just admit that you're wrong and that you suck and that you're in a hard spot like that can change absolutely, I think changed people's lives and my own kids. Like, I admit when I mess things up with my wife, she needs to admit when she's messed things up with me like, that's not easy, that's tough. For any husband, wife relationship you always want to be right. But she knows her lane, I know my lane in communication I think is absolutely the key to that. But yeah, it is why we are who we are, we're all very vulnerable in my family and you gotta be, 'cuz that's how you get better in life. 

Michael: Yeah, I agree with that. And for a long time, I wasn't, I was scared. It's like vulnerability is weakness, you're soft, you're a bitch, you're a pussy. When I go kind of trace the steps leading to today, it really just started with me sitting in rooms with people and going, this is who I am. And there's a lot of fear in that, fear of judgment, fear of shame, fear of guilt. And you know, when you put yourself out there, you put yourself on the line like, you're going to get judged. I mean, it's incredible to me. Like even I could be sitting here like, I'm trying to help the world and I'll have people be like, you suck and I'm like, cool. Who gives a sh*t what you think about me? And I wish, that's my superpower. Right. I just don't care. And that has enabled me to go and do big things because it, it can be scary.

I remember, I spoke and I've shared this ad nauseum on the show, but since I'm going to get into context of something, I want to bring it up. I did this pitch off for Think Unbroken to Grant Cardone at one of his boot camps with 10,000 people freaking watching. And remember at one point, right before we're about to go on, Grant looks at me, he goes, Hey, hey man, you know that grant thing? Hey, you got something in your nose. Now I have a no gold nose ring. Right? He goes, you got something in your nose. I look at him and go, cool, I'll get it after. Right? Just knowing he's trying to mess with you, play with you, build you. I don't think he's ever trying to knock people down; he's trying to see what you're made out of. I distinctly remember that moment and being like, Cool man. I'm not intimidated by you plus you're like five, seven, bro. You know? So, he's somebody that I think gets a tremendously bad rep. And for me, has been a mentor that has dramatically changed my belief in self. I was shortly after winning that, somewhere in that window.

Matt: No big deal. No big deal. That's a badass.

Michael: Well, I believed I was going to and there was no way I wasn't…

Matt: And dominated it too.

Michael: Thanks man. Well, and that was something I've talked about on the show before you have to believe in yourself to the point of stupidity. Like people are like, that's so dumb, you believe in yourself that much. And I have that ability ‘cuz I've had to train it into myself. But shortly after I find out about this television show – Undercover Billionaire. Now, I had watched the previous season with Glenn Stearns and I thought it was a really phenomenal concept. Okay, you got this guy getting dropped off anywhere America, a hundred bucks. Can he build a million-dollar business in 90 days. On paper, you go, that's a cool TV show. In reality, you go, that's probably impossible, right? And so, this eccentric crazy billionaire, playboy Borderline psychopath, Grant Cardone lands in Pueblo, Colorado, and I'm watching the show and all of a sudden, here's your face on my television. I won't spoil it. If you haven't seen it, go to Discovery Channel. Watch it. I'll let you tell the story, it's not loud enough…

Matt: You can spoil it however you want.

Michael: Well, I want you to spoil it so. Talk us through that, just lay the framework, because I want to go into this, I'll go somewhere in a second, but I want you to lay out how this happened. 

Matt: Yeah. So, long story short, Grant Cardone, a guy named Lewis Curtis was dropped into my community. And the premise of the show, he had a hundred dollars and he had to make a million-dollar business in 90 days. And when he was dropped into the community, he did so many unbelievable strategies and to your point, a mentor of mine now for sure. But he met a lot of people in our community, and I was known as that idiot serial entrepreneur in our community at this moment, because I've been the one guy that's open business, this is at the exact same time so I was known for that in the community. So, when he comes around saying, I'm looking for a business, the community kind of said, go talk to that Matt Smith guy like, he'll do it with you. And then the Discovery Channel came to me and said, Hey, we're doing a documentary on public Colorado.

So, I'm like, okay, I'm your huckleberry. And they did such a great job that fake names fake, Instagram’s, fake everything through this whole process. And these are like 20 guys, and gals and they follow me everywhere going. So, I think I'm the cool guy cause they're following me but really that was all fake ‘cuz they were really following him and this story was about him. And then all of a sudden, I met this guy and they were like, Hey, this is great stories, so we wanna put these two stories together. So, they really played it very well. But long story short, fast forward COVID, you know, we started from I dunno, probably 10 days, two weeks and then COVID hit and me and Grant or Lewis at the time were like, ah, this is fake, I'll see you back in a week. Go back to California and I'll be here, you know what I mean? We didn't know how the impact of Covid and what it was about to do to our world. But right before that, I wrote a check to him, you know, for $10,000, said, I'm like, is he going to cash this thing, this guy that I just met? Like, I had no idea what was happening with this. But then he ended up coming back during Covid and we finished off the show and it was a magical time, like you said, he is just a force to be reckoned with. He doubles down I mean, some of the stuff that you were just talking about is Grant Cardone the guy that doesn't care about what anybody else thinks about him that is on a mission and will do whatever it takes and that was different for me because I probably cared too much about what people thought about it myself when I met Grant. And I think that he was a force that said, hey, this is gonna happen and he wasn't going for a million dollars, she was going for 10 million, he's trying 10X this stuff. Like he always says when he is on the show that he was like, they told me million. So, I'm like, I'm going for 10 million. Let's see what I can do to get 10 million on this thing. And it's apparent the success that he's had is because of his ability to run fast and I always thought I was a fast runner. And then I met him and I'm like, wooh, this guy runs fast but he's always on a mission. Like there were borderline offensive conversations where we would be in a room and pitching somebody and then he would stand here and he would be like, they're not buying. So, he'd be like, okay, thanks for your time and walk out, I'm like, that was rude, this is a friend of mine that I'm bringing on here. Like you don't just walk out so, we would get in a little bit, but it's who he is. He's like, he's at a point in his life. He's not here to waste time. Every 20 minutes means something, it moves his needle to the next level in life. And those were so many lessons that I learned on there but long story short, undercover billionaire came out. I figured it all out at the end of the show. We've definitely become friends since and business partners in Wake-Up Pueblo a little marketing company down there and I went to 10X for the first time that year and just blew my mind. I had no idea how big this guy was until I went to the 10X conference.

Finding Self Worth and Healing Trauma with Dee Evans

Michael: Yeah. I resonate with a lot of that and when I was in my mid-twenties, as I've shared many times on this show, like I hit massive rock bottom and nothing seemed better to me than the possibility of not waking up tomorrow. And one of the big reasons why I've put such an emphasis on this show and the content of Think Unbroken and all the things that we do is because I know what rock bottom feels like and I know what the other side looks like. What was it as an adult that you faced? 

Dee: I allowed myself, I did not take responsibility for my life and I allowed myself to put myself in a constant state of self-sabotage and negativity. And I like to think of it, I mean, we've also heard the study maybe we haven't all heard the study, but there's a study out there that talks about water and the color of water  and they did a scientific  study and they, like if you talk to the water so many times negatively, it will actually start to change color and it components will start to look a little dirtier, nastier versus if you start talking to it positively, it will get clearer. And so, I wasn't really aware of how I was talking to myself, but so much of that had compiled to a point where I was just in this darkness. I had talked to myself so negatively for so long I was in this darkness, in this space where I had no self-love, I had no love for myself at all, and that's what nearly broke me. It was my responsibility to be like, hey, this is how I'm seeing, despite all the external forces that were coming at me and the things that were happening around me, it was when I actually decided to take the responsibility to be like, no, this is the way I'm thinking and I'm the only one that's in control of how I perceive life. And that took a lot to realized but when I started taking that in, then I realized I could start with baby steps to changing that. And I've seen just like you probably both sides of being in the negative state and the hurt in the internal state of self-sabotage, but also being in a blissful state and knowing that your potential is limitless and that you are the greatest being and soulful being that there could be.

Michael: The question that I always think to myself is like, what does it take to give people that? And I just don't think, actually, I know you cannot create change in your life without that breakdown because you're comfortable, because you're good. And sometimes even the breakdown, the native self-talk, the beating yourself up, the destroying your life. Like you go, this is my life, my life sucks, it's supposed to be this way and we convince ourself that that's true. And what I think is really unfortunate about that is there's so much potential in all of us. How did you start to pull yourself through that? Was there a moment, was there a pivotal moment where you were like, wait a second, I don't want this sh*t anymore?

Dee: Yeah. So, my pivotal moment, I mean, we'll probably get a little heavy here, but I was at a place where I was so broken. I had been married and I had had a lot of devastation and betrayal in that and that allowed me to kind of get in well, I'm not worth it, I'm not lovable, I'm not, and I was in this place, and one night I was in so deep. And if you've been in a dark place where it feels like nearly impossible to pull yourself out, you have to recognize that there is a hundred percent higher power, universal power, God, whatever you believe in that sees you and sees your potential, your higher self. It could be even be your higher self and your intuition, it's like, no, this isn't right like I gotta stop this because then you allow yourself to continue to get in that dark space, it can nearly break you. And so, I was in this space where, it was a pivotal moment for me, I was laying in the bathtub and I was just trying to calm myself because I was like, I feel so hurt and I feel so heavy and I don't even know what direction to go and I feel like I'm not going to be here anymore. And I really, in that moment, was so dark that I wanted to slip under the water and basically drown myself and so, it was really hard. I mean my higher self, my God was like, no, this is not happening. So, there was that resistance there and honestly that's what saved me hard to explain ‘cuz everybody has their own personal journey but that's what saved me. And that moment of brokenness, I realized that I was in so deep and I realized that like, this isn't who I am like, I'm a mother, I'm a friend, and I started getting these thoughts that weren't mine. And so, I believe in God, I know it was from my God, our greater source that started trying to feed those into me because he knew that if I didn't get some kind of positivity that was gonna be the end for me.

And so when I started to feel and see those things that I'm like, I am a mother, I am these things and I'm like, why am I in this place where I don't see the beauty of the world around me? I don't see the beauty of life, of the people that love me, that are here for me. And I've isolated myself to this lonely, hard place and that moment it clicked. I'm like, I am responsible and I don't know how I got this or what I got it, but my mess becomes my message.

I talk about responsibility, and responsibility is your ability to respond. So, when your intuition or when your higher power is speaking to you, you have the ability to respond to that and the choice is yours. It's whether you decide to do it or not, that's up to you, but you are in control. And that's when it hit me. I'm like, I can respond to this in a positive way so I pulled myself out of the bath and I just sat there crying and I felt this all-encompassing love for myself. And I felt the light that I am and the potential that I have. And I was like, I have to do something about this and I know I'm not in a place right now, a mental or emotional place to even be right in my head, but I'm like, what's like one thing that can help me? And I started with actually it gets called healing through Christ, it's an addiction workbook that someone had given me and they handed it to me and said, hey, I really think you should work on this workbook. And I was always like, well, I'm not the one with the addiction, so I don't wanna deal with it but that was my first action step is I was like, someone gave me that healing through Christ's workbook and I'm going to go open it. And the minute I opened that and looked into step one, that's where my journey really started, I kind of went through that whole book and then I started, I was learning so much and it was bringing so much light and joy to my life that I started compounding on that, I was like, Ooh, I'm going to go get a book and jumped into vex King and he's a very much a self-help ultimate love guru of positivity and light. I started reading his Good Vibes, good Life book and like these little things started shifting my mentality and I started journaling. In fact, I can actually go back to my first journal ‘cuz I was journaling during the time of hurt too, not as much as I do now, but I was journaling and you read my journal entries and it's devastating. It's like someone, it's not even me writing, I'm like, this isn't me and it's sad to see the same cycle over and over and over again. And then you see this shift and you're like, someone else is writing this book, these are two different books, there's a book of worry, fear, shame, guilt, hurt, negativity, not enough, worrisome trying to save somebody else versus the book that you read now is like all basically positive affirmations. It's just like, oh, I see myself. I am a light, I have this potential, I get to choose, I have the ability to respond to my life, I can take action on my own internal wellness. And so, my mission became internal wellness to external results because I really do believe you can, it has to start within, you have to believe in yourself, and you have to start feeding yourself just like that water for it to start to clear up and for you to start to become a light. And when I put two pictures side by side, when I was the person in that depth place, which I love that person because it built my character and that pain now connects me to others. I'm so much able to empathize and understand others because of that pain. So, now I have that and the person I am now and I put those two to side by side and you can just see the light, you can just see it's drawn into because of the work that I put in but it's possible for everybody. And their story might not be a pivotal moment where those thoughts start feeding in, but it might be a person or it might be just a walk-in nature, it might be their own intuition, it might be higher power, it might be a thought of a pet or an animal or loved one or whatever. But those kinds of things, your intuition is constantly feeding those in and your higher power is constantly feeding those in, it's what do you decide to listen to? Because that's really where you're gonna get the best results and a little bit into the what I believe now.

Healing After Grief and Learning to Love Yourself Again with Gina Perin

Michael: Yeah. It's fascinating how often we think that when we look at people who are very physically fit, that their sh*t is together and a lot of times you find that's actually not true. And the opposite too when you see people who are really unhealthy and just physically from the outside, you would assume that maybe their mental health is really bad, and sometimes that is true. And so, I think that's just kind of the dichotomy of life and we're gonna explore and dive into how you've gotten into this holistic approach on both sides. Tell me about your earliest childhood memory and what are the things that drive you?

Gina: My earliest childhood memory definitely was around the age of seven. So, I grew up on a farm that's very important to know, a farm in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania, oldest of four. So, all of my siblings were also my friends, that's we only had each other to play outside. And the neighboring farms, we had our cousins that lived near us, so that was great too. My cousin Tommy was quite a bit older than me, about 14, and I looked up to him. So, I thought he was like Evel Knievel I mean, wheelie is on his dirt bike, the whole thing and I just, I wanted to be him, I wanted to be him when I got older. And at the age of 14, when he was 14, he killed himself, shot himself in the head. And it hasn't been determined either accident or on purpose but either way, he had died. My parents took me to the funeral, so that was a very impactful moment in my life, it was the first time that I've ever seen adults cry, it was the first time I saw my dad cry. I don't know that I fully understood what was going on but I knew it was very, very big and that was definitely the first experience that is seared into my brain. Like I can smell that the funeral parlor, I can literally smell it. I remember sitting there on my dad's lap, so, that would be the first event that really started to shape my life.

Michael: I don't think most children understand what is happening in that moment. When my uncle was drinking and driving and it was New Year's Eve ‘93 and drove his car off the side of a on-ramp, closed casket, the whole nine. And so, I was a little bit past eight years old and I remember all of the grownups being sad and that's something I think as a child you don't understand, you don't process. And in those moments, and like you, it's actually seared in my mind because I remember being like, well, where is he at? Why is everyone here and he is not here and so on and so forth. But they often say one of the hardest things people go through as family is like losing children. When you look back at that moment, did you at all understand it? Did anyone explain it to you? And especially under the circumstances, or what was that like?

Gina: They explained it to me. However, when we're in the funeral parlor and sitting up front, I remember my dad taking me up to the front and you got to say goodbye to 'em, it was an open casket and he literally just looked like he was sleeping, laying there. So, in a seven-year-old mind just thought he was sleeping and he was going to wake up and come play with me the next day so, that was really hard to understand, I don't think I understood it like at that very moment, but as time went on and he didn't come the next day and all that. And this I remember very, very specifically is there was just a little band-aid, like on his neck, there was just a tiny little band-aid and other than the band-Aid, he literally just looked like he was sleeping. So, I definitely don't think I understood what was really happening, I was more fearful of seeing my uncle and my dad crying like these men in my life that I thought were very, very powerful, strong men I had never seen them cry and certainly not like that so that was impactful for sure.

Michael: Yeah. I would imagine that carries a lot of weight into relationships and family dynamics and this may be a bit of a strange question, but how did you start to reconcile that? One of those things, like even still, does it feel like part of childhood is missing?

Gina: Well, I can tell you that I definitely didn't reconcile anything for a very, very long time. I think I just suppressed that, nobody ever talked about it after that. I don't wanna say swept under the rug or anything like that not like he was forgotten, but I don't have any memories of him ever being like, really talked about after that. So, it kind of like, just kind of went away.

Michael: Did that change who you were?

Gina: I'm absolutely sure that it has for sure. You know, around the age that he was, you know, I'm 14, 15, I just started getting into a lot of trouble. By the time I hit high school, I was just not going to classes and just not doing what I was supposed to do started experimenting with drugs, started experimenting with alcohol very young. I can't say for sure that that's what I mean, it wasn't just that what happened there.  But those are like my next memories that happened of just going down like this really bad path. And then, going to college, dropping outta college, just didn't want to go, just had a lot of unresolved things going on and got married really young. So that's coming from a small town, you get married, you have kids, it's what you do never even questioned that there'd be anything else to do in life. So, luckily, stop doing drugs and stop drinking, got married, had kids, shortly thereafter divorced. I mean, just catastrophe, as you can imagine, wasn't a great partner, just very selfish, I would definitely say that I was very selfish, really didn't have a direction of where I was going what was happening.

Michael: Yeah. My thought when, as you were saying that I was, people who get married young, I feel for them in a lot of ways because I'm like, you don't even know the right questions to ask yet.

Gina: Zero idea. I had zero idea. I mean, it's funny, looking back at it now, I'm like, it's almost cringey. I believe even look at photos and I look like a baby.

Michael: Yeah, because you probably were. Well, and of course now we live in a different world where most people aren't getting married till their thirties and forties at this point, we live in a very different society, but even when I was in my late teens, early twenties, the people around me were getting married and I was always the outsider, you know, and even today, I'm probably still the outsider in a lot of ways, because like I go and I look at those experiences of high school and the drugs, the alcohol, the partying, the breaking the law in ways that I still don't even really talk about, it was like, that felt way more normative to me than whatever was happening in the world for some odd reason. Like I felt this really interesting call, part of it was survival like, go make money, do whatever it takes and part of it was there's a thrill in this chaos. Right? If you chase chaos and you're used to chaos in your home, your parents, your community, and you see this so often, more per capita, more people do methamphetamine in small towns than they do in big cities. There's like something, I didn't grow up in a small town nor farm, but y'all have nothing to do. What was it that at such a young age had driven you into drugs and alcohol?

Gina: It's what everybody was doing around me. There isn't even a great experience there's nothing to do, it's going to the woods and get somebody to get you alcohol, a lot of alcohol and just drink and quarry jump and do stupid sh*t, you know? And that's what you did. And I literally looking back by 21, I was like, I can't keep doing this, this party in life and college wasn't working out for me. And it was like, I know I'll get married because that'll fix everything, that'll get me to stop.

Michael: That was a cognizant idea that you had?

Gina: I believe it was. Yeah. Like maybe, I stop doing drugs and drinking and I'll get married and straighten up and everything will be just, it's insane when I say it out loud when I say it out loud now, today, decades later, it's like, where was the thought process and all of this. People around me were starting to get married again, they get married kind of young, that's just a, maybe a small-town thing I don't know or even back then, so we're talking 25 years ago, so it was a different time. And you get married and you start having babies, like that's just what you do.