Transform Your Relationships | with Topaz Adizes

Michael: Welcome to the show, my friend. One of the things that I think about deeply is the human experience when it comes to relationships and how part of what you've been able to do in skin deep is create a container to have deeper, more emotional, more intimate. Conversation. I think it was a thing people often struggle with. My first question for you is why should people who are in any kind of relationships, listen to today's episode?

Topaz: Because I've had a. Honor, privilege of being able to witness over 1, 250 conversations over the last 11 years of all kinds of relationships. Best friends, couples, exes, sisters, brothers, grandparents to their grandkids. And that's an incredible data set to learn from. And it's been, and I've learned a lot from watching it. I've learned a lot from having two people in a room, sit down. I custom make questions for them. And I witnessed them having a conversation, my team and I. And, just last week we were talking at Dartmouth about doing a research study on it, and that's a big data set. 11 years, 1250 participants, 1250 pairs. And if you think about it, how often do you really get to see people in vulnerable, cathartic conversations? It's a privileged position to be in, and I think it's just a reflection, if you want to learn what I've learned from that experience of doing this for 11 years, there was many different conversations. That's why I listen in.

Michael: Yeah. My hope is that we do learn today.

Topaz: Yeah. And like even, okay. What's the value of having these cathartic conversations to the payoff? What's the payoff? Deeper connection with the people that are close to you.

Michael: No.

Topaz: What is this experience called life? If not a reflection of how you connect with others, we humans are uniquely networked organisms, it's, I'm about to go on a 10 day silent retreat. It's going to be wonderful, but I'm not going to do that for my whole life. We live life in connection with others. That's what makes it valuable is the reflection of others how we reflect others to themselves. And so conversation is just one tool that we use to connect with other people And that's the one that I’ve learned a lot from my experience the last 11 years.

Michael: In deep is this incredible show that I think I saw it for the first time like four or five years ago. And it was a conversation about this guy who just gotten out of prison talking to his little girl. And I think that one went like super viral I think everybody saw that millions and millions of watches and views but skin deep is something that even in my like News feed or my stories or my reels will pop up and I always stop to watch. And I think a big part of that is because as a human, like I want to bear witness to other people. It doesn't have, and also here's what I think, it doesn't have the train wreck feel that most social media has, where like we're waiting for the punchline of the chaos, where instead what we're going in. bearing witness to are people's souls and their experience coming into this moment where like they're sharing deeply intimate truth and pain or love or joy or sadness or whatever it is. What I'm curious about when we look at this world that's so consumed by hatred and greed and loss and pain. How do you tell that really emotionally powerful story and yet do it in this way that makes it feel human to people who aren't in the room with you?

Topaz: Yeah, thank you. I'm glad you feel that way right now. I'm glad you stopped on our content. I'm glad it resonates. I think, I see us as a digital, we're like the, a digital dose of humanity. We're that corner of the internet where you can sense humanity and get a sense of that. Which I think is rare these days, frankly. And why do you get a sense of humanity when you watch the content? Because I think humanity is not in us. It's what's between us. I don't even know if I like humans, but I love humanity. I love humanity. I love that sense of connection, reflection, sense that we're not alone in this experience and that we get moments of connection and bouts of loneliness and the work that we do because by virtue, we bring two people in a room, we offer them questions that are facing each other and we film it with three cameras. A wide shot and two close ups. And whenever we present that on any social, we're always showing you both faces at the same time. And that's how we illuminate the humanity that's between you, between people, because we're saying, just by the virtue of how we film it and what we're sharing is, what's important is the space between. What's important is the connection. And so when you have a question and someone goes, when was the time I disappointed you most and why do you think I did? And they're both looking at each other and they're processing that moment. That's where the gold lies. That's because they're reflecting what we're pulling at is a thread of their connection. And I think, and I don't know, because I think it's subjected to every individual person who's, resonates to you. I love the term bear witnessing, but I think that sense of witnessing their connection also reminds you of the connections you have with the people in your life. And maybe it reminds you of the connections you don't have and want to have or the ones you have and you're like, I don't actually don't want that in it brings up the question of how am I connected to people in my life? How do I want to be connected in people's lives? And how do I not want to be connected with people? And I'm just honored. I really feel a responsibility. My team and I feel a responsibility with the beautiful format that we have. That we stumbled into and that's why we've been doing it for 11 years. We're now starting our 12th year. And I think bearing witness is a wonderful term that we feel responsible and honored. In being able to hold a space for these courageous conversations, and it doesn't have to be courageous, where it's only crying. It's also fun, explorative. It's basically having created the space for people to have conversations that they wouldn't have otherwise, and I think there's a lot of value to that because, the computation. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Michael: Because people will come to me in coaching when their life really isn't working, and they'll lay it on the line, they'll be very vulnerable, and then I'm like, have you told your wife this, your husband this, your therapist that whomever, and it's like the container doesn't seem to exist. And I feel like a lot of people have the understanding that they're on an island. I think a big part of that is, and our majority of listenership is in the United States, we grew up in this space where it's put some dirt on it, don't cry, don't ask for help, and we carry all this heavy weight with us. How do we as individuals, and maybe this is through some lessons you've learned bearing witness to all these people, how do we as the individual, work towards creating more vulnerability in our life, even though we've been told it's a thing we're not supposed to do while being, if that makes sense.

Topaz: Yeah, I lost you there. Can you go back? You said while being what? While being what?

Michael: How do you create vulnerability while being told it's the thing that you're not supposed to do and simultaneously being told it's actually the thing that you're supposed to do?

Topaz: Yeah. Don't you feel these days that's shifting? I say the last five years, 10 years that vulnerability now is, at least in my work, I feel like I hear that all the time and vulnerability. I feel, do you feel the tide is changing or do you think it's changing and only certain niches, about being vulnerable? How do you, with the work that you have, how do you feel like, what have you seen? Cause, cause for me, I feel like, aren't we all talking about vulnerable conversations these days? Or is it just that I'm in my own little silo and of my work. So it comes up a lot. Like a lot of the clients that you have, is that a big challenge for them? Like the argument why to have vulnerable conversations?

Michael: That there's the, I think that there's the vulnerability that we see portrayed on social media a lot. Which is this prefabricated vulnerability. And then I think there's the vulnerability that's real and authentic, which is why I was so drawn to what you've done over the course of the last 11 years. And I think that the actual true vulnerability that lies within the deep set of conversation between two people without a camera in their face still doesn't exist in the way that we want to tell the world that it needs to exist to create the safety and the healing. That's my thought. If, even though we have it and you and I, because we're touching it on a daily basis, it exists within our containers, but we built these containers. I don't know that the average person, and by the way, if I'm wrong, please, I don't know. I'm just making a guess here based on what I understand, having myself coached thousands of people. What I see is more of people come to me and they're like, I don't know how to have this conversation with the person I spend the most time in my life with.

Topaz: Yeah. Okay. So two things that come up for two things, two subjects. One is vulnerability and one is how to have the conversations that are vulnerable. About vulnerability, the things that come up for me, one is we should acknowledge that there's layers of vulnerability. It's not like you hit a certain point and you're vulnerable. There are layers of vulnerability. And maybe at a certain stage in your life, a certain thing is vulnerable. And then as you practice it, you can become even more vulnerable. You can even share more. So I think we should, for me, I see vulnerability as just a never ending peeling onion. It's just there's always room to explore that and go, and there's not a, this is a point where you're vulnerable and that's it, and that's acceptable vulnerability and this is not. It's no, there's just a process of vulnerability and how much are we exploring that? And, the other thing I think is important to recognize in terms of vulnerability is that, often times when we say vulnerable we think of the person who's sharing. We think of the one who's sharing. I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to share my trauma or my space or how I feel with you. We should also recognize that is vulnerable in being the listener is vulnerable to be the seer vulnerable to be the person who's holding the space to receive what the other person's vulnerably sharing. And why is that specifically if you're in a relationship and your partner tells you, look, it's really hard for me and I feel really uncomfortable, or this is challenging for me when you do this, or where we're in a situation, this. You who's listening, that's vulnerable for you too, because maybe what they're sharing and their vulnerability is confronting to you. And so I just think it's important to recognize the vulnerability on both sides. It's not, oftentimes we just put so much about the one who's sharing. There's also vulnerability we should just acknowledge in holding the space of listening, right? Of listening, and because sometimes you take in someone else's vulnerability and you might feel Defensive because wait, this is a, reflection of how you behave. And you're like wait. And you want to know all the space allow that feeling of you being discomfort, uncomfortable. That's also you being vulnerable is accepting and listening and seeing listening to the others. That's one. So that's the side of vulnerability that comes up for me. The other one in terms of how to hold a space for this for me, what I've learned, I'm just going to break it down is create the space and the space has to be safe. I'll let's not confuse safety with comfort.

Michael: That's a big one. Great point, right?

Topaz: Oftentimes you feel uncomfortable. So, you say, wait, I'm not safe. Actually, safety and comfort are two different things. And where you want to be in terms of having a cathartic conversation, a vulnerable one, and one that really explores things is you want to feel safe and you want to feel uncomfortable because that discomfort means you're growing. An example would be if I'm going to go bungee jumping in theory, I'm safe because whoever, the company that take me bungee jumping, they've done this thousands of times. They've tested the rope or the bungee cord. They know I'm not going to hit the ground or whatnot. In theory, I'm safe, right? But I'm uncomfortable because I'm about to jump off a bridge, right? You want to be uncomfortable because that is an exploration of something new for you. That's stretching the muscles or the ligaments and your emotional ability, right? But you want to be in a safe place. Do you trust this relationship? Is this a constructive relationship? Is there mutual trust? Is there mutual respect? And I don't quite know what makes a safe space. I don't have, you have way more work and experience in probably elucidating what defines a safe space, but I just want to make that distinction between safety and comfort slash discomfort. And for me, it's, how do you create a safe space that allows you to be uncomfortable? And for me, there's two things that come into that. One is boundaries. How do you create the spaces? Okay, we're going to. I have a conversation that we're allocating two hours of our time. When I put the phones away and we're going to play a game. That's why I have these card games, the game creates boundaries, there's rules. Is this how we're going to do it? I'm going to ask you a question. You can talk about, you can pass, right? Then you take a question. You ask me, ‘cause we have additions of the card games that the card game creates. It's a game. And what's in a game is rules. And what are the rules? They're boundaries is how we play it to create some kind of space. We're going to do this thing and what about that is that part of creating the space is being aware of the space We're in much like you don't sleep in the kitchen and you don't cook in the bedroom, right? Certain spaces give you permission to behave in certain ways. Someone's cooking in your bedroom. You're gonna be wondering what's going on They're cooking in the kitchen. You're not wondering why they're cooking in the kitchen So similarly when your partner comes to you and says why do you love me? You're not wondering why you love them You're wondering why are they asking me? Why I love them. The space hasn't been created. So, when you pull out a card game, you're like, Oh, we're playing a game. And the question comes up, why do you love me? Okay, now I can answer it because we know the space we're in. I know why this question is coming up. So, do we create the spaces that we're aware of what is happening in the space so that we can really sit in it? And then what are we sitting in? The discomfort of well-constructed questions. So let's create the space and well-constructed questions. And then we can talk about what is well constructed questions mean. But those are the two pieces. It's like you want to create the space so that you can then delve into and give each other permission to give an answer to a question but also receive the answer to a question because similarly If your partner comes home and all of a sudden tells you, Michael, I want to let you know why I love you so much and from the sun to the moon. You're the most You're not necessarily going to receive that acknowledgement of love because you're wondering where's this coming from? But if we sit in a space where we know where this is coming from, then we can really receive.

Michael: That's powerful advice because I don't know about you, but no one taught me how to have a conversation. Yeah. And people will come to me quite often. They'll say, hey, you're an amazing podcast interviewer, so on and so forth. And I'm like, ‘cause I created the container. It's a place where we come together, where it is an understood assumption. We're going to have a back and forth. I'm going to ask you questions. You're going to answer them on the occasion. You're going to ask me, we'll have a conversation. And that is what the format is. And it's really interesting because that's trans transferred over to my personal life and business life. Incredibly well, because I've realized, and one of my mentors, Brandon Dawson taught me this, the quality of your questions, determine the quality of your life.

Topaz: Yeah, let's, yeah, absolutely. The power is in the question. The power is all in the question. And that's something that when you have a conversation with a partner, what we don't realize is, okay, so first is, let's create the space. And part of that is, boundaries is you want to articulate your intention, which is where you're starting from. Oftentimes we articulate our agenda, which is where we want to end up. I want to have a conversation because I want your apology. I want to have a conversation.

Michael: That never works out very well.

Topaz: No, it doesn't. I want to have a conversation because I want us to decide that we should do this thing. So, think about it. When someone comes to you with that. Which is this is where I want to end up. You're not engaging them with your heart, with your emotion, with your openness, you're engaging with your mind. Your mind is built to protect you. So you're coming out ready to protect. Wait. Why do I need to apologize? Wait. Why are we doing this thing? But if instead you say, Hey, listen. I want to have a conversation that I'm, I want to explore this. You are, have these feelings and I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what we're going to end up, but this is where I'm starting from. And I invite you to start for the same place and let's see where we go. That's more of an invitation for the heart to come out, right? So part of creating the space is stating the intention, which is where you begin, not the agenda where you want to end up. Go ahead.

Michael: Let's walk this down a little bit more because I'm just so curious because you've been able to witness unbelievable conversations from conversations about Gosh cheating and death and murder and loss and Greed and sex and all the things that happen plus the joys and happiness and you know Getting to see love transpire between two people and so on and so forth What's walked this idea down about this articulation because I think one of the things most people struggle with is just getting the words out. Like, where do you start right? And then what are you seeing when you're sitting people down in this container that's allowing them to open up? If you were to formulate it, what would that look like?

Topaz: In terms of state of the intention?

Michael: In terms of just, in terms of just getting it out, like taking whatever is in your head and getting it out and having the courage really to have the conversation to begin with.

Topaz: Huh. Okay. So the reason you want to have a conversation, any conversation is because if you don't, the pain you will have in the future or the lack of connection you'll have in the future will outweigh your, the pain of having that conversation now, because if you look at your life, the things that you kick down the road, the tension that you had with someone that you didn't want to confront, didn't want to confront at some point in life made you confront that thing. And it became even more painful. And if we just look at our bodies, if we don't stretch every day, right at some point, and yet the next day we, we don't stretch and exercise. And we decided to go for a long hike. We're going to pull something. And then now you're dealing with the. stretch hamstring, pulled hamstring, right? But if you exercise every day, then when you go on that long hike, you're not going to pull it, right? So the discomfort you have now of having that conversation does not compare to the discomfort you'll have to have at some point in the future when this little seed of tension becomes a full on fire of a conflict. So, to make things a practice of having conversations super useful, because it's just a practice of having, and then you're, how do we do that? We articulate attention. How do I articulate my intention? Not saying what I want to end up at, but where I'm beginning. Feel your curiosity. Look for your curiosity. This is where curiosity comes in. You hear it a lot in the space, but where curiosity plugs in is it enables you to articulate or feel, I should say, because maybe it's what I call emotional articulation. Maybe you're not very good at articulating your emotions. Which is different than emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is understanding emotions, how the people really know. But the other one is, how do I put words to these feelings I'm having? And that's a practice to practice it. If you have a partner, maybe you're really good at your partner is not. Be patient with them practicing, but create the space so that we can all practice the partner could practice, you practice emotional articulation. So you tap into your curiosity. Why do I want to have this conversation? What is the thing that's bothering you here? And instead of racing to the solution or to the thing that you want resolved. Feel into the thing that's, the curiosity of why is this happening? Try to construct a question not a question, but a articulation of the intention of why do you want to have the conversation? So for instance, recently, I had a conflict, let's say, with my brother, and instead of saying, hey man, I want to know why this happened, and why did we get to this I'd say wait, this is my brother, we grew up together, we have similar values, I know he loves me, he doesn't want to hurt me, but this thing happened. Oh, wait, I really do want to know then why this happened. Not from a place of being right or wrong or making him feel, but actually let me go deeper. The curiosity, where's the pain, where's the company, where's the disjunction of the understanding. And let me ask the question from that space. Let me clear for that. It's not asking the question is articulate the intention of what kind of conversation you want to have. It's from that place of curiosity. You don't know, because if you come to a conversation where you already know the answer and I'm trying to get you to know the answer I have. You're not going to engage me with your heart, with openness, with curiosity yourself. You're going to engage me with your mind to protect yourself because you're like whoa. Why do I need to come on your plan, on your agenda? Why do I have to do what you want me to do? Where's my own independence? So that's really helpful in creating the space. And it could be something as simple as that's why we have these card games are super helpful. Why? Hey, I have a box of questions. It's a game. Let's play the game. What's the intention? To us explore a relationship. Okay. We're starting the same. We know what the rules are. We're not the spaces. So I had a good friend of mine call me up and she was having a challenge with her business partner where sometimes you have 50, 50 business partnerships and sometimes one feels like they're carrying more of the load than the other, right? That comes and goes. And she understands this is normal, but she was like, how do I create the space? How do I articulate my intention of creating the space to have this conversation? I'm like tap in your curiosity. This is your collaborating partner that you love working with. You have similar values, right? But you're wondering how is this going to last? How is this going to work? How do I, how can I share my feelings as uneven at the current time with you in a way that we can use it as constructive? So tap into that curiosity and articulate that. And you need the space. You need the space with this other person. And what's interesting too to know is that whenever you're leaning into pain, you want to speed up. But you have to do the opposite. You got to slow down. So part of creating the space is making sure you have enough time. So book a three hour meeting. You know what I mean? Do it in the evening when you know you have an open ended, there's nothing that's going to cut you off. Because if you only have an hour, and you're going to lean into discomfort, you're not only going to rush through the discomfort, which you need to slow down, but you're also rushing because you try to get everything done in an hour. And sometimes the more challenging the conversation, the slower you have to go. Even though, because it's so challenging, you want to go faster.

Michael: That's sage. Yeah, I mean that, that makes perfect sense to me. And I think that, So often we get into this idea and this mindset where it's rush, rush into it. Let's get the solution. Let's move on. It's like really it's it really is and I'll teach my clients this all the time and go sit in the discomfort Whatever is in front of you and it sucks because what's our natural biology, right? You mentioned earlier the brain's purpose is to protect us for survival And especially when it comes to the deeply intimate conversations with the people we care about the most and who care about us the most. Because we don't want to hurt or be hurt, and so instead of doing the thing we know we need to do, we often step into avoiding. But avoiding, as you mentioned, on a long enough timeline is going to create a much more painful outcome than the moment of sitting in the discomfort and having the conversation. Which, by the way, you don't even know where it's gonna go. Because you haven't had it yet, and you're probably ruminating about a reality that's not true because you have no evidence to prove so. And I think so much of it, for a lack of a better way to phrase it, is rip off the band aid. Actually, let's sit down and do this. Now, I'm sure you must have seen this happen in some of the conversations in Skin Deep, where you have this moment where you can tell, wow, this person's finally doing the thing they should have done eight years ago.

Topaz: Or they're still avoiding the thing they should have had conversation for the past eight years. You can see that too. Yeah, that's what do you, how do you advise to your clients to when they're having a challenging moment with, in some relationship and how they handle the pain that comes up? Or the discomfort. What do you what do you tell them?

Michael: I encourage everyone first and foremost to write. So you notice, I have my pen in my hand, I'm writing as we're having this conversation. I believe that humans are very analytical. While we're emotional, you show me A plus B equals C, I get it. You tell me how to build the Lego Star Wars set without instructions, I'm a nightmare. That's anxiety. That's freaking out. I can't get myself. Contained with the instructions A, B, C, D, all the way to the end, I get to create something and I believe the biggest mistake people make is they don't formulate an understanding of their own thoughts before they walk into the chaos of someone else and so instead of having a coherent conversation, they're brain dumping on the person across from them about the thing that they're trying to extrapolate, but they don't know how to extrapolate it because they haven't sat with themselves long enough to create meaning. So I always encourage people first and foremost, you're in the discomfort of the not knowing. Let's grab a pen and just write and tell your brain goes, Oh, that's what I'm actually trying to get to. This has nothing to do with you leaving. The stove on has everything to do. When we were on that date night six years ago and you looked at that other guy and you didn't. Say that thing to me that I needed to feel comfort, but you can't get from a to B without sitting down and taking all the chaos in your mind and putting it in a place where you can like literally see it. And so that's the number one thing. Now you asked me twofold and while normally I'm interviewing I'll go in deeper here. ‘Cause I think it's a very valid question. The other side of well, what do you do with the pain? It's actually really funny because that's one of the questions I have on you for you Is like what do you do with the answer you don't want and in the way that I look at it? I just simply sit in reality. We come into conversations for one purpose and in my opinion you tell me if you see it differently and that's to find truth. At the end of the day, at the crux, when you break it all down, and you look at any conversation we have.

Topaz: We come into reality to find truth? Is that what he's saying?

Michael: We come into conversations to find truth. Because whenever I'm in conflict, I just want to know the reality of where we're at. And so what I'm always thinking about, the pain of the truth, that's reality. And you've got to sit in that reality. Now, and I just think that's because as humans Like we want to avoid truth, but I'm curious cause I wrote this down. What do you do with the answers you don't want?

Topaz: Yeah. Okay. So first for the answers you don't want you should not have answers you want. So that should never be the case.  Because then you're, then if you're not getting the answers you want, you've ended that conversation with the agenda of where you want to get to, not the intention. So if you find out, good, that's not the answer I want, but that's not the reaction you want, then you're not in the space in the proper way to have a then you're not, cause you're not then letting the other person be not inviting them to be. And why? And for me, we're in converse that leads to like, why are we in conversation for me?

I don't feel it's about truth. I feel it's about being seen. Is that not truth though? No that, that's seeing your truth. Sure. Versus my truth. We could have two different truths. I do this great thing when I work with classes. Students, I'll bring out a quarter, right? And I'll have two kids looking at the opposite side of the quarter. And I'll be like, Jimmy, what do you see? I see a quarter. And they'll be like, Rachel, what do you see? She's I see a quarter. Oh, so you both see quarter? Cool. But Jimmy, what do you actually see, really? He's I see a head. I see George Washington's head or some old guy's head and Rachel, what do you see? She's I see an eagle. Wait a second So you both see a quarter but jimmy you see a head and Rachel you see an eagle what if you see a heading? How is it both a quarter? Who's lying? Who's telling the truth? They're both telling the truth. It's the same thing, but they're seeing different angles to it So for me, it's not about let's say the truth is in your subjective truth. And maybe when we see truth we think of objective truth Which then leads also to the power of the question. You talked about your mentor who said, the questions, the power is in the question and I totally agree. I think the answer is the question or vice versa. The question is the answer. And we are so focused on getting to the answers that we don't realize that's not where the power is. The power is not in the answer. The power is in the question because the question shapes the answer. And if we take that layer, even layer down when we're in conversation, it's actually not, in my opinion, it's not about finding the answer. It's about sitting in the discomfort of the question. Can you and your partnership, whether it's your best friend, your lover, the co-parenting partner, or your colleague at work, can you sit in the discomfort of the question? Because if you can, it suggests you're resilient. It suggests that you can sit there and acknowledge the truths that both of you have, although they might be articulated differently or might be different, but can you do that? If you can do that, then you have a strong basis. And that's the practice. To then find different answers. But can you sit in the discomfort of the questions? And oftentimes we race towards answers. We're looking for answers. We don't realize we might find the right answers to the wrong questions or right quite right answers to poorly built questions. Like for me, there's no right or wrong question. It's just, is this a well-constructed question or is there a better constructed question, how well constructed this question. And that to me is says everything. And that applies to the questions you ask yourself. That applies to the questions you ask in your partnerships. What are the questions you're asking? That's where all the power is. So ultimately, if you continue this, if you continue that line, you're like, okay, we create the space, but now we ask questions who in the partnerships asking the question and we should acknowledge whoever's asking the question immediately has more power because why are you, why are we going to have a conversation around your question? Maybe your question is not well constructed or why are we going to focus on that? What if we change the question, right? What if it's my question? So how do you create the equanimities? That's why I like the card games are really helpful because it's, oh, the question is not driven by you or I. It's driven by the randomness of the card games. Neutral. Neutral. Or similarly, if you go to therapy, there's a therapist or a coach, they yield the question, so they hold the power. Okay, but then what happens when you go home? How do you, how, whose practice is sitting in discomfort because when we're in therapy, we have a coach. Or we have a referee. Which is really helpful in untangling conflict when it gets so bundled up. Like you need that coach, that guide, that therapist to help both kind of work their way through it. But what about the practice in relationship to sit in the discomfort and to get those questions and still quick create equanimity? That's also a thing. There's a lot of power in the yielding of the question.

Michael: Yeah. And that's why I love what you said about poorly asked questions. Because, and that's why I'm always, I want to take all the things in my head and formulate. And I think that can be really powerful. What are, I'm going to ask you this in twofold. What is one question now, regardless whether it's intimate relationship, a friendship, a business relationship, it doesn't matter, but we all have relationships with people. What is one question every person should ask and what is one question people should never ask if there is such a thing.

Topaz: In general, ask questions that fetch you answers that can empower you. So don't ask questions. Why'd she dump me? Why'd I get rejected? Why did I not succeed here? You ask that question, your mind, the faithful dog that it is, will chase down that stick. Stick is the question. And it will bring you a bunch of sticks that are like, how helpful are those answers? Why did she dump me? Because this, like what can I do with those answers? Shift the question so that answers that are fetched, empower you, give you agency. What can I learn from this relationship to carry to the next? See how that will give you more empowering questions, answers that you can work with. Why did I get fired from the job? Da. Okay, what will I take from this experience, from this job experience into the next? So that I can, execute it better or whatnot. What, why do we fight so much? How is that going to help your relationship? The answers that fits your mind is going to chase down any question you throw. That's its job. But where you throw the question, the stick, where you throw the question, create your question you create. That's up to you. So throw the stick, create a question that fetches back powerful answers. And what I mean by powerful answers are ones that give you agency that you can work with. So why do we fight? It's no. What's the biggest challenge of our relationship right now. And what is it teaching us? Why, what are the gifts that our conflicts are offering us? Do you see how that fetches you answers? You're like, okay, yeah, we fight a lot. What are the gifts in there? Why not? So I think that's the purview I have to all the questions is is your question offering you, is it fetching answers that are going to empower you? They're going to give you something constructive that you can work with, or they, one's going to make you feel worse and deteriorate your energy. One question I think is helpful to ask in general is what experience do I want to have? What experience do I want to have? And then you can even deepen it what experience do I want to have and how can I put myself in position to have or what habits can I consistently do to put me in a position to have that experience, or what experience do I want to have and how do I create questions that reinforce that experience, right? Because sometimes maybe you want experience who wants to be happiness and if you're always asking questions Why is today so shitty? You're not going to be happy If you ask the question said through all the shit I got to do today. What's the best thing that's going to happen? What's going to be the moment that's going to teach me so much, right? That question finds the needle in the haystack from all the shitty things that can happen today. What's a great moment. I'm going to really enjoy. Boom. But if you ask the opposite question, what's, what's the shitty thing I have to do today, then you're going to find the other needle in the haystack, which is the shitty thing. And the thing of all the great things that are going to do to happen today. That's why the power is in the question. The questions we ask are purviews to how we perceive our reality, our worlds. And we not often aware enough. That we're not the questions we ask ourselves. And sometimes the questions we ask ourselves are actually not our own questions. They're society's questions. They're culture's questions. They're our parents questions. They're our friends group questions. They're the little niche that we're in on Instagram that's feeding us questions that you're seeing. Whatever. Everyone's doing this, so therefore, why am I not doing that? What questions are you asking yourselves? And the power lies in the question.

Michael: That's so powerful. Yeah. And I can see the reframe there too. And what I think here is like, how do you get to agency, right? How do you get to empowerment? How do you get to resiliency? How do you get to ultimately the end goal? Because one of the things that I think about a lot is the reality, like the questions can be really difficult. Example, and I share this publicly. My mother was a drug addict and alcoholic. She cut my finger off when I was four years old. I come from one of the worst childhoods you could possibly imagine. And the question used to be, Why did this happen to me? Every, why? Why does God hate me? Why does the universe hate me? Why did I get these parents instead of rich parents so I could be on a yacht in Monaco? That used to be the question. And then the question was, How do I use this to serve other people? Huh. When that question came into me almost a decade ago, that's how I got here today. And so you're reframing what you're talking about there. And the way that I look at it, and this is how I teach it to my clients, I go, how do you go from being a victim to being resilient in the way that you're asking questions?

Because there's a tool here for you when you change the way that you formulate it. And that I've seen hold true in my life because that's why I'm here with you today. It's a simple shift.

Topaz: Do you literally have them ask different questions? Is that how you say, so you find the question they're asking themselves that they might not be aware they're asking themselves. You illuminate that question. You're like, so it seems like you're asking this question. What if we change that question to this other question? Is that what, is that your process?

Michael: Yeah. It's a huge part of it. Because ultimately what I'm always trying to figure out is what do you want? I think that's the crux of life. What do we want? What do we want to move towards? What is it we want to create and build? What do we want in our relationships?

Topaz: And please, but so I see that to me is what do you want? And I'd see a better, better constructed version. That question is what I said earlier, which is what do you want to experience? So, you say, what do you want? Some people say I want a car, right?

Michael: And that's where the challenge comes in, right? Because they'll say I want to have a business. And I go, okay, what kind of business? Do you want to sell snow cones? Do you want to sell bottles of water? Do you want to sell headphones? How much money do you want to make? Who do you want to make it from? Who's your ideal client? And so it's like I look at as starting all the way up at the 50, 000 foot view and then through the series of questions We narrow it down. Like I’m basically just giving away the secrets of coaching here But really what it is you look at it you go Okay, what do you want and they're like I want a happy relationship with my wife. What in the fuck does that mean? And then we go into the nuance and by the time we get to the truth of what they want, which is, I want my wife to appreciate me when I do nice things for her, which could very simply be the answer, it might have took us 25 questions to get there.

Topaz: So, what I'm hearing in that is interesting. It's just what do I want? They say I want a golden ring. I want a bigger ring for my wife, or I want a bigger ring from my husband or whatever. But when you say, what do you want to experience? You say the next layer down is happier. But then you're going, okay what does that mean? What are the things you can do and what does that feel like? And that makes me think that's also why you have them writing things down to, which that hit me like, Oh, that's beautiful. Cause what you're offering them, there is a distillation to go through their thoughts and their feelings to really get clear on distillation of what is happening for them at that moment. It's distillation. I usually have people write things down for the flip side, which is so that they know that they've been heard. And sometimes when you're in conversation, people cut you off or people. And so, when you write it down and someone else reads it, they can't cut you off. They might stop, look up, look around. Maybe they misinterpret what you're writing, but it's written there. So maybe they misinterpret, then they speak to you like no, that's not what I meant. Reread it and they can reread. So that's what I offer. Sometimes when there's a lot of emotion there that you want to make sure that you've been heard or you've been seen. Maybe you're not fully seen, but at least you know that you have the ability to like fully, and it's interesting. Okay, then you write it down so that you know that you can't cut off, like it's there, you can read it. And it's really interesting about the distillation so that you're very clear on what's going on for you and deepening your curiosity of what is it that you want to have experienced?

Michael: Yeah, it's so fascinating. And here's what's so interesting as humans. We're all so different and we all take data in and receive data differently. And what I love is just the explore. That's why I love this show. I've never had a podcast where I just talked about questions. For an hour. I've never had that happen. And here I'm sitting, I'm like, okay, cool. How do I ask better questions? What questions do I need to ask? What questions am I not asking? How do I empower people through their questions? How do I, 'cause I always say the quality of your questions determine the quality of your life.

Topaz: Totally, I agree with that. That's, and you hear the obvious, you say the quality of your relationships determines your life. And I would say, okay, you know what precedes that? What precedes quality of relationship? I say one is quality conversations. Yes. Okay, then how do you have quality conversations? Create the space, have well-constructed questions, right?

Michael: Yeah.

Topaz: I love it. I think question, and then there's, I'm really been deep in this. For me, the questions is there's questions. There are five things that create really good questions in the scope of relationship, right? There's also, how do you utilize questions for yourself? One is question loops. The most obvious question loop is why? Ask it five times in a row. What do you want to experience? Why? You let it out, buy that. Why? Why? Why? You just keep going deeper. You've seen that. The other one is you ask a question. What do I want to experience? The next question you say is a question of you like what would that give me? Then the next one is what if I already have it? Because sometimes you want to get something you're like maybe I'm already there. So then what is it that I want? So, you ask these questions. You're like, what would it give me? What would I experience from having it? What if I already have it? Why? What would it give me? What if I already have it? And you loop that and you'll take you into an interesting road to distill down what it is that you're exploring. What is it that's coming up for you? So, question loops are really helpful. The other thing I do is I have a deck that's the self-deck. So, it's a bunch of questions. So whatever question you're asking yourself or dilemma you're dealing with, should I break up? What strategy should we take for this or, for my life or should I quit the job or not? Like you have other questions that you throw at the bigger question, right? And so that helps you distill and pull out the threads of how you're wrangling with this bigger challenge or enigma that you're asking other questions that are coming out that pulled the threads out. And then the third thing I, yeah. And the third thing I think is like, how do you construct well-constructed questions for yourself is really interesting because oftentimes I find when people are stuck on a question, they can't figure out what should we, where should we live? Should I break up? Should I get married? Should I quit my job? And they can't figure it out. They can't figure it out because they're just like looping and just not able to find the answer. It's just created a better question. And the way you create a better question is you have three kinds of fill in the blanks that you fill in. One is time frame, one is how it makes you feel, and the third one is how it affects others. So if you're wondering whether you should get married to this person or whether you should dump or break up, and you can't figure it out and you're banging your head, it's stop. Create 30 questions. Brainstorm on 30 questions. By filling in these blanks in different ways. What can I do in the next six months so that I feel challenged and inspired such that I can contribute to my family? What can I do for the next six weeks? Where I feel really safe and secure and recuperated such that I can support my family with comfort and stability. You create 30 to 50 of these questions where you just brainstorm different versions and timeframe, how it makes you feel, how it affects others. And you look at that list and you circle the one that inspires you the most. That's what I mean by creating your own questions, not from your family, not from your parents, not from your culture side, your own question of that one. This question goes, what can I do for the next six months? That teaches me deepens my understanding of intimacy. So I can really sense it such that I'm in a position to have an incredibly loving relationship with a partner in the future. Ah, Okay, that's the question that really inspires me. Should I be with this person or not? The answer becomes obvious. So, when you're really banging your head against a certain question you can't figure out, it's because you construct a much better question. When you construct a much better question, the answer becomes obvious as to what you should do to the previous question.

Michael: So powerful, man, this has been phenomenal. We're almost out of time here. I feel like we're just now starting to touch the surface of extrapolating all this. And it's so beautiful because what we ability to walk the path of what you and I have just been talking about. Do you want your life to be different? I would honestly, I have three pages of notes here. If I were you listening to this episode, I'd go back and listen to this again and grab. And just start to take all of this data in and to formulate a better understanding of where you're at in your life and what's in front of you, what you're chasing what empowers you, how to have these difficult conversations and sit in the, on the discomfort of it all for growth and also to go check out skin deep as well as Topaz's book, which is amazing. It's called 12 questions for love, a book that I think everyone should read as well as really connect with him on social. It's amazing what you've been able to do, build, and create. And before I let you go, I'm going to ask you my last question. A question that's been asked to every person who's ever stepped foot on this stage with me, which I have great appreciation for you. I'm thinking so much right now. I'm like, am I doing this right? And I love it, right? I love it. But my last question for you, my friend. What does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Topaz: Yeah, I've been thinking about that. And I'm having a hard time with it. I'm having a hard time with it because I feel like what breaks us is what makes us. And I feel that maybe it's not broken. It's a shaping. I feel like life shapes us for things. If we choose to believe in that interpretation. I choose to believe in the interpretation that life is shaping us for things, but basically to create gifts that we can offer others. And so, I don't know, for me, it's to be unbroken means that you can break. And I think we don't break, we just shaped.

Michael: That's beautifully said. I agree. And I think that as I just simply look at my life today, those experiences that led me to the moment of asking the question of how do I use this for me made me who I am. And so I see that. Clear as day. So, my friend, thank you so much for being here.

Unbroken Nation. Thank you, guys so much for listening. If you found value in today's episode, please make sure that you share it, subscribe, let a friend know, reach out to Topaz or myself if you have any questions about questions.

And Until Next Time, My Friends,

Be Unbroken.

I'll See Ya.