Understanding Self Doubt and Asking For Help | with Chase Friedman

Michael: Chase R. Friedman, my friend, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to have you. There was something when we first connected that you and I talked about where I was like, I have to have this guy on the show to talk about this mental health journey, especially as an entrepreneur, a leader, a father, a husband, a change maker. And there's something really beautiful, like in your bio that initially drew me to you. And it says you want to do good and do well. And I was like, man, that just, that hits me so home. So I'm excited to have this conversation with you, brother. Thanks for coming and doing this.

Chase: Good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Michael: Yeah. For those who don't know, and obviously we're going to talk a lot about the journey of your own personal mental health, your transitions, overcoming resiliency, all of those things, but tell us a little bit, paint us a picture here. What was childhood like for chase? Where do you come from? What was your experience of boyhood?

Chase: Yeah. Great, let's dig into the armchair. I had look for all intents and purposes. I had a pretty great upbringing a stable family supportive, loving, parents friends, all that kind of stuff, did well in school. And yet that doesn't always translate to happiness or success or a positive mental state, right? It's one of the things that looking back now, it's almost tricky to look back and say void of any major traumas, right? Maybe some minor traumas, what leads someone to develop some of these symptoms such as, depression, anxiety, self doubt. But as a kid, I had a pretty good upbringing. I always felt that I was in a race to get it grow up faster than I probably should have. I probably left that inner child behind and find myself trying to reconnect with that now. And I do that through my kids. But yeah, it was, my parents always preached to me, which I still take to heart, do what you love. They were in more traditional corporate jobs. I knew it wasn't truly fulfilling and their dream and their purpose. And so at very least they wanted to pass it on to my brother and myself to hopefully inspire us on that path. And I think I'm trying to walk that as best as I can.

Michael: Yeah the reality is our family, our upbringing, the conversation around nature versus nurture leads us down the path we end up on whether we like to admit it or not, there's no way we create Think Unbroken and have these conversations about mental health had I had a different childhood, but I think that a lot of times people reject that and it's such a hard notion to sit in because at some point you want to fight against it. You want to be like, that's not me, that's not the thing that I want. And then in some sense, depending on who you are, it's almost Machiavelli in a sense, because you start to look at the world through these like really jaded eyes. And you're like, yeah, but do I really do what I want? Do I really do what I love? Am I really living in authenticity? And then it leads down this path where you're like, no, I'm anxious. Now I'm depressed. Now I'm this now I'm that, and I was having this very interesting conversation. It was just yesterday with a friend and I was explaining like in my mid 20s running my first business, dude, I was having five panic attacks a day. When you look at that, it's, do what you love, and then it's be careful what you ask for.

Chase: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. No, I think there's a delicate balance. I think it starts with what you're passionate about and how you translate that into an occupation, a vocation, a career but I think that's a constant process, right? How do you juggle that burning desire to, to grow and to achieve and gain success, but also taking the space to be kind to yourself, giving yourself the grace to say, I don't have that. I'll have all the answers all the time, right? This isn't going to happen in days, it might be decades. Being, I wish I had that. Alternate self on my shoulders saying, you know what, Chase, you're going to pursue this, but it's going to take some time and you need to learn to stop and breathe and take care of yourself, or you're going to burn out, which I have on many occasions. I've been through many of those cycles, panic attacks, et cetera. It's a delicate balance as an entrepreneur and a business owner thinking that we have to go a hundred miles an hour, especially in this culture and this society, this atmosphere and not take the time for ourselves to reset.

Michael: Yeah, and then you add on being a husband or a wife or having kids and having employees, and it's almost like, how do you even survive? How do you actually navigate this landscape and this culture?

Chase: Look it's when I was, when I found out my wife was pregnant, we were pregnant for the first time with our first child. I thought to myself I don't have any more time in my day. How am I possibly going to make more time for a child? I'm already, my tank is already, full of work and running a business and be trying to be a good wife and a good husband and a good friend and all these different things, right? You think that you're at this capacity, but you're not. We are resilient beings in the sense that we make space we make, more room and more time and more priority for the things that matter. And so one kid becomes two and each time around you're like gosh, I'm already inundated and overwhelmed with my current schedule, I have no time for me. How am I going to make more space? We do, we find ways to, whether it's through efficiencies or delegation or time management. We have to find ways to be, smarter, not harder in terms of the way we operate our lives. But yeah, trying to show up every day and be present for my kids and my wife, top priority for my clients, for my team, for my business. And then hopefully at the end of the day, I get a little bit of me time. But I also got to remind myself, you got to put on your own oxygen mask first before you can serve anybody else.

Michael: Yeah. Do you think, how much of that I think about this a lot, right? I grew up being taught how to be codependent. It's really innately, deeply in my DNA. Learning from this perspective of put others first, your last, and then you add on, like, all the trauma. Obviously, this audience knows my past. And it puts you in this position where you go, Oh, I actually am not as important as Chase. I'm not as important as that person over there. I'm not as important as this thing. Do you think, that's a learned behavior. Like, how did you get to that place where you're like, Oh man, now I'm at the bottom. I still have to remember to put on my oxygen mask, but like the plane's about to crash. Did that, does that feel like deeply seated in the past for you? Like it did for me?

Chase: Absolutely. I loved, I love that question. This is like round two of my therapy for the day. Cause I literally was talking, meeting with my therapist, my spiritual guide…

Michael: What we do.

Chase: I think I'm about this exact dilemma. For me, it comes down to the ability or inability to create and set boundaries that protect yourself. I am, Oh, I have always, as long as I can remember feeling the need to people, please to over deliver, to say the right thing, do the right thing, for fear of judgment, fear of rejection, fear of loss and failure. And those are circular sort of habits and themes that have occurred throughout my life. And in business, I have found myself burning out on multiple occasions, because I give all of myself to my clients, and sometimes even more so than my own family. And that's a weird thing to think about, and I have to switch that. How I'm honoring myself, my family, and clients too, but in that order. And sometimes we get it twisted, but to your point, I can, I remember having that feeling. Since the youngest memories as a child, feeling like I had to do and say the right thing to appease other people and to avoid that criticism and rejection, a self, protection mechanism. Yeah, it's fresh.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate your vulnerability and going there. And it's just the reason why I brought that up. ‘Cause it's I get it, being a young kid and, as an athlete for a lot of when I was eligible to be an athlete in school, I was an athlete, and a lot of that's about performance. It's about your graded, as your ability to perform to show up. And I was not a very good student. I had a one GPA in high school, okay. So I'm not the one like from the academic perspective who was accomplished, but especially in wrestling and football, I did really well. And it was just like, you're always on this platform standing in front of, it's almost like that scene in Gladiator where Marcus Aurelius is in the arena and he's just defeated all of everybody that is thrown at him and the king stands there and holds his thumb out and he goes, should I kill him or should, does he get a live? And he's like doing this back and forth.

Chase: Are you not entertained?

Michael: Yeah. And dude, that's what life feels like sometime where you're sitting here and you're like, am I not entertained? What am I doing? Why am I pushing myself so hard? And I know that there are people listening right now where man, they're on the edge of burnout. They've been people pleasing codependent their whole life. They don't know how to set boundaries. That to me has been one of the hardest journeys. Because it's like I'm so driven and I feel like driven people most of the people listening the show they're like facing that too.

Chase: Yeah. I spot on. I think, back to childhood, I think there's whether that pressure is imposed upon you, from parents, from coaches, from teachers, that X, that set of expectations that kind of wires your mind to think, okay, I have to meet their expectations. Otherwise I'm failing them and failing myself. But I think there's also at least as I experienced that those self imposed expectations, right? I can't remember my parents ever, telling me, Hey, you didn't do this good enough or like really breaking me down. If anything, it was almost in some cases too much praise. I wanted a little more tough love, but I think the way that's operated, my thinking today is that if I don't continue to perform as that sort of perfect child, or this perfect business owner or father or husband, that support and love is going to go away. And that's not accurate or true or realistic, but I think that's the way we morph this. And you said something else about sorry, the second part of the second part of what you just finished, I had something for you, we can circle back on it.

Michael: Yeah no, no worries. It'll come to you and that happens you know the thing that I think about going back you mentioned like this idea about these self imposed expectations, and it's like that often feels like the more dangerous ones, because I think like a lot of times I find myself like balking against society and being like, don't tell me what to do. And then I look at myself on this whiteboard next to me and the other side of the studio a laundry list of the greatest dreams that I have. And then it's if I don't, what you said is so insanely important and I don't want to scrape over it, actually wrote it down. If I don't perform, I don't get love. And it's love from who, and so like for you what is that like, how do you start to navigate this? ‘Cause this is a conversation people are having in their head. Men are having in their head. Entrepreneurs are having in their head. Teachers and moms are having it like this right now we are in the over performance, over indexing time capsule that is fucking up our society in ways we can't even understand yet. So how are you navigating that?

Chase: It is a constant daily initiative, right? From the moment I wake up and going through my mantra and gratitudes or getting my mindset right to the moment I go to sleep. But it is constant process, takes discipline. I put in just as much, if not more energy into just getting my mind right to just go about my day from a positive mental attitude than I do anything else. And for me that's needed, but I think what's important is we have to understand it's a process, it's a journey, it's not a destination. I used to look at, it's, you know, my career path as a summit to the ascent of a mountain and okay, but what happens when you get there, then what you just sit around and look, taking the view. No, it's this is more of a peaks and valleys sort of situation. So not thinking there is a there necessarily and giving yourself sort of grace in that process to learn and support yourself. I think that I'm really good at, giving love to those that I care about and not as good at giving myself that love and support when ultimately that's what we need to realize. Honestly, one of the tactics, or it's not really a tactic, it's a habit. I'm not on social media for the most part personally. I do it a lot for my clients and it's great. I'm on LinkedIn, for kind of business purposes, but I think social media has morphed into this. Bastardized version or idealist version of people's lives and realities, right? You look at the way they live and what they have and the trips they go on and the careers and success. So much of that is smoke and mirrors. And we look at that and we think that's reality, we don't know their lives, we don't know if that's accurate. And then we judge and evaluate ourselves based on what others are sharing.

So that comparison, that competitive nature. Just spurs that cycle of am I enough? Oh, I'm not doing good enough, it's a vicious cycle, you're right. This is the society we're in right now.

Michael: Yeah. And it's one of those things too, where, I see it all the time where, even with myself knowing how much work I've done on myself, being cognizant of that I was looking at a peer who's a public speaker like I am, I found out how much money that they had made for this talk, and I was like, fuck, really? And then it becomes this conversation and you're like, what am I doing wrong? Why am I not as good? Why am I not as important? Blah, blah, blah. And then you take a step back and you realize that's everyone's conversation. And he's having that about the other guy in front of him. And he's having that about the guy in front of him. And I think it's really bringing yourself down back to this earthly level and then just levering, leveraging gratitude that anyone would even consider you to begin with, which is like such a crazy concept.

Chase: It is. And then you wrestle with the imposter syndrome. When someone considers you, it's okay am I good enough to serve them? And do I have all the right answers? And there is, again, there is no, there is no perfection, understand, know what, and be confident in that. Know what you've overcome, know what you can carry as a person. But yeah, you're right. There's always going to be that next wrong, that next level of success, right? And before long, it's, it becomes never good enough. You achieve that milestone you set for yourself and instead of celebrating, you're looking at, okay how do I get to the next one? And I think that's absolutely a cause of burnout, of frustration of mental health crisis. I think as, especially as men, even more so as fathers, we're, a lot of us are afraid to be vulnerable and share this, but you're right, just about, if you really dig deep, so many people around you are dealing with this exact thing, and it helps normalize and demystify it once you talk about it, but not many people are volunteering the type of information you share and you talk about, right? I think we're, unfortunately, a little bit of a minority.

Michael: It's scary. It's scary because putting yourself out there and especially in the way that I do and look for context, I have framed the things that I choose to talk about publicly. There are certain things, 700 episodes plus of this show, hundreds of episodes as a guest, God knows how many blogs and books and article all the things, and it's there are things that I will talk about, that belong in this space because we can create a conversation. And then there's things that belong with my coach and my therapist or my partner and my people. And I think that's part of the problem that we're facing right now is there's so much vulnerability that it's almost like vulnerability vomit. And you're just like walking down the street and it's just raining people shit on you. And you're like, wait a second, like at what point is this not actually practical for anyone? And I think that's the other side of the social media conversation, which I think is interesting, right? ‘Cause you have this background in branding. So do I, this is a big part of what I've done to create my life. And on this one hand, you have this, here's everything lifestyles of the rich and famous, beautiful and pretty supermodel great vacation. And I'm here, it's yeah, but what about that darkness? Like of all those secrets that are there that people just extrude into the world and you're like, wait a second. And so trying to find the balance in that is almost seemingly impossible when, especially in that comparison space, how do you, like how do you navigate that for yourself? Because we're all subject to it. I don't I'm not innocent or guilty of it. We're all just subject to it.

Chase: Yeah. I think there's a degree of again, starting with gratitude, really reflecting, understanding all the things around you, us that we have to be grateful for, I live in a free country, um, I have the ability to vote I live in a beautiful home and a community. I have a healthy family, like these are things that we oftentimes just take for granted. They seem to be like just, the standard. Looking around me and in the world that's like a 1 percent of a 1 percent sort of scenario. So gratitude is a big one, I think like you mentioned, I think knowing sort of your circle of trust and who you can really rely on to be there for you in different capacities. I agree about the vulnerable vulnerability vomit, you have to shape it and frame and compartmentalize for different people in different instances and that's another big thing that I'm working on that I need to be nurturing more of my life is community and connection, right? As a father, leader, entrepreneur I've, I don't know, I put myself in this sort of silo, this bubble. And over time you get isolated, you get detached from people. Community and connection to me is like the lifeblood of our existence. We need to interact with people on a human real level so that we don't feel alone and isolated in the stuff that we're going through. So there's just a couple of ways that I'm trying to, and I'm doing this on a daily basis, trying to avoid the pitfalls and the vortex of comparison and jealousy and not enough. By reminding myself who I surround myself with and what I have to be grateful for.

Michael: Do you think that being isolated leads maybe down that path of burnout? Maybe it makes it worse. And the reason I'm asking this is because I We live in an interesting time where we have been isolated for now, like almost four years. If you really think about it and people work from home, if you're like me and you, maybe we have a team around us sometimes, but it's a lot of alone time. A lot of people are in that they're working remote jobs or not really around, you're hopping on zoom calls every day. Do you think that's plays a role? Is that lack of…

Chase: Yeah.

Michael: Something that you might point to?

Chase: It's lack of human contact because if I look at my day, I'm on more virtual engagements, meeting calls than ever before, but it's through a screen. I'm looking at a screen right now. I'm looking through a camera. There's a complete difference between being in the room with you and vibing off each other's energy and all that. Yeah, I closed up our offices in and around cove it. And ever since then, I've really embraced the remote work lifestyle, working from home, having remote, team members, and I think there's benefits to that. And at the beginning, I was like, I like this, I can, go to work in pajamas and I'm actually more productive. But I think that's a false sense of reality, just like social media is in terms of we think we're more connected because we can reach more people through a social network platform. But is that real meaningful connection? Is that real dialogue that's happening? It's the same thing in our work lives. We're on these zoom calls all day long, and I think there's attrition that happens and we forget to step outside and meet somebody in real life. The fact that we have an acronym for in real life IRL is baffling to me. Like you have to designate, Hey, I'm going to that festival IRL. It's why do you have to clarify that you're in real life? It's just a weird distortion of what we come to know just in a matter of a few years has completely shifted.

Michael: Yeah. And I think it's a dangerous shift because I was having the soft the other day, I was sick. I had strep throat. It was not a great experience, but sometimes you get sick. And I was home by myself for four straight days. ‘Cause I didn't want to get anyone else sick. I was just doing like my due diligence. And I was thinking to myself. Isolation is so painful, even if you're an introvert, and I'm an introvert, believe it or not, like I'm an introvert.

Chase: Yeah.

Michael: And so I'm sitting here and I'm like, holy crap, if I were by myself for one more day, I might literally freak out. And there are people who are not taking that step to go put themselves in community. Who's not taking the step to go and find something to do IRL. And if that's this thing that like leads to burnout and ruins our relationships and makes us not be great fathers, it's like, why don't we. Do what is the missing piece? Is it fear? Is it shame? Is it judgment? Like, why are, from your perspective, like, why is this happening? And then how has it impacted you?

Chase: Because this has become comfort and convenience for us, right? The comfort and convenience from working at home not having to go and drive and do a commute or meet somebody in person or pay for lunch, all this kind of stuff where we've become a little bit complacent and with, the increase in technology in our daily lives it's much easier to text somebody than it is to pick up the phone and call them, which is much easier than going and meeting them somewhere for lunch, for coffee, whatever it might be. So I think we got to be careful of this slippery slope of slipping into it. I'm with you, I'm an introvert. The beginning of kind of this quarantine, I was like, Oh, okay. Like I like being in my little shell, but that was dangerous because I look fast forward a year or two. And I'm like, wait a minute, this has become my new reality and I have completely forgotten how to nurture myself outside of this little bubble. But wait, I have my days full of meetings. What do you mean? I'm talking to people all day long. How is that not community and conversation? It's completely different, right? There's a certain energy, there's a certain sort of presence around being around people in person. I wish I could have done it, with you versus virtually. But same thing, comfort and convenience, right? Hey, my schedule didn't line up, I couldn't make it out there to Vegas. So we defaulted to this, which is the decisions we make constantly day in, day out. And over time that snowballs to become the standard if you will.

Michael: Norm, yeah. And it does become the norm. And, if, and this is just pure biology, babies who are not held will die. It's just science. It's just biology, it is human nature. And you look at us as adults, it's you may not be a baby, but you still need human contact, and you have to get out of that space of isolation. And people are like why am I depressed? It's well, you've been staring at a screen for 14 hours. The real world is out here, but it's strange to me because I remember moving when I came to Vegas initially and just being hesitant about the real world in some ways again, and I've always been like this adventurous dude who was like, willing to do the craziest things. Most of my childhood supports that, and then I was like, wait a second. What has happened here? What is like? I have somehow become programmed to just be like, fearful of just going to the coworking spot. And that's like such a crazy mindset. And you know what I do, you use this word discipline a few minutes ago. What I realized I had to do was put it in my calendar and not negotiate and make it an act of discipline to go to the coffee shop, go to the lunch, go to the networking event, go to the volunteering event, go to jujitsu or more tie. And it's so weird that you're almost like retraining your brain.

Chase: Absolutely. I do the same thing. I block out chunks of my calendar to remind myself to set my own boundaries. I'm going to, I'm going to try and go on a run after this. And it's something that like, do I really want to? I got work and I got to make dinner and do all these other things. Yeah, I need to for me, I need to do that for me. And that's not necessarily connection community, but always when I can opt for an in person lunch, or going to an event or networking event, I'll sign up for it. And the day comes and I have this. This apprehension, I don't want to go and it feels uncomfortable and I got to put myself out there and I got to be on quote unquote. But then you go and you force yourself to do it just like exercise or working out. And when you're there, you're in flow and you're enjoying it. And so we do have to retrain our brains because I think we have devolved in a way to this place of, I'm just going to be in my comfy little corner here at home working my day and I don't have to interact with anybody. And that happened fast, right? Like COVID accelerated that. I think that was already happening, COVID accelerated that. So we have to work actively to retrain our minds and our behaviors to go back to the way, we're meant to be as humans, as species.

Michael: Yes, impact. I wanna circle back to something that I wrote a note on, 'cause I think it's really important. And this conversation on burnout and the impact that it had on your career, running the business, your family, yourself. I think that a lot of people don't even realize it's happening. I am one of those people where. For years, it's funny, I have these rules for life that are right here next to my desk. And rule number one is I am a person that does not get overwhelmed. And that rule has served me incredibly well, that rule has allowed me to build this company, to coach thousands of people, write books, travel stages. But I realized overwhelm and burnout are not the same thing. And so about six months ago, you and I actually talked about this a few weeks ago before sitting down to record today, about six months ago, I was about to close this company down, I was about to walk away. I was like, I am exhausted, I am burned out as I could be. I've recorded 700 something podcasts, another 300 as a guest, written two books travel on average, 200 days a year for three straight years. I'm done. And I picked up the phone, I called my best friend and I said, Hey man, I'm thinking about closing the business. I just don't want to do this anymore, I'm tired. Those were the words that I use, I said, I'm tired. And I realized that I had to just take a break. And I understand that everyone has the luxury of that, but I've worked really hard to be able to have the luxury of that. I was like, I'm going to go get a job at the UFC, ‘cause that would make me super happy. I'll just go chill for a year and then go work corporate America. And then I realized I'm driven, I know my why, but there was a gap that had to be bridged. I would love for you just from your perspective, cause I think it's different for everyone. Can you talk about what burnout has looked out look like in your life? Because obviously it's impacted you like tremendously because maybe there's burnout, depression, anxiety, panic attacks. Like what does that kind of look like in the role that it's played in your life?

Chase: Sure. I think I've been through a few seasons of burnout. One, more recently where burnout led to overwhelm, led to anxiety, led to depression, led to almost an inability to get out of bed for today, get off the couch, short of deal can be paralyzing, it's a spiraling effect. I think the burnout happens when you're not heating those signs and signals that are absolutely there around, Hey, take a breath, slow down, rest, reset, get away from it, like you said, for a little while, we're looking at, we look at that oftentimes as giving up or surrender or weakness. My kind of mantra for this season of my life is a word that I would have never ever used ever before because of the previous connotation I had with it. And that is surrender, right? We used to look at surrender as giving up and quitting and letting go and not giving a shit, but instead, I've used surrender as not having to have this firm grip on controlling everything in your life all the time, because that's what leads to burnout. And the more you can let go and just trust the process and do the best you can and follow your purpose and your, follow your why, it'll lead you there. I believe, I do believe that, when and where and how, not exactly sure. It's different for everybody, but the idea of embracing the term of whether you want to say letting go or surrender is essential and we're not wired to do that because the moment you surrender or let go, you're falling behind. And then you're lost in the pack, right? Or you're not making forward momentum and progress, you're taking a step back. It doesn't have to be as binary like that, it doesn't have to be a step forward or a step back, it's, let me stay in the moment. Let me pause and reset and take a breath, I'm learning, each time I've burnt out, I'm learning a little bit more on how to be more resilient and get through it. It used to take me weeks of a real sort of gut wrenching blow to the system to rebound from it, then days, and sometimes now it's a matter of hours, do some breath work and boom, I'm back in it. So it's been a constant practice and strengthening of that muscle to see and hear the warning signs, abide by them to avoid the inevitability of burnout.

Michael: Yeah. Use a word that I wrote down, you said weakness. And I think that it's, I don't think this is exclusive to people who are entrepreneurial. I don't think it's exclusive to any industry, I don't think it's exclusive to anyone except humans. That word can often be something that on two, there's two sides of every coin, right? On this one hand, it can actually be empowering. I don't want weakness in my life, I'm going to do what I have to do to be resilient. On the other hand, it's I cannot let weakness exist in my life. I have to be resilient. Thus, I will fucking destroy my life in the process. It's such a, it's such a double edged sword. Where do you think that came from for you? Looking at that in this idea of rest or recovery or taking a step back or being burned out was weak.

Chase: It's a great question. I think that's, the moment I take a look around, like you mentioned earlier at peers in the space of the industry that, I compare myself and say, wow, how are they so much further along than I am? How have they accomplished this much more in their life? How have they grown their business to this level? Listening to you share your story and all the incredible things that you're doing, I'd be lying if I, sat here and said that there wasn't this, Oh, wow. How amazing would that be to get to that? That level of being able to travel the world and speak and impact so many lives, right? That's the pursuit. And I think that letting go of that rope, letting go of that constant hustle mentality because, hey, you must be hustling, right? You must be nonstop 24/7. So if I take a little bit of a break, that's weakness, right? I'm not strong enough or disciplined enough to get to that next level. And I think that's again, that's that inner critic, looking at that as weakness. I don't think it's real. I think it's a more of a perception of the society and culture we live in where if you are not constantly hustling and moving things forward and progressing, you're falling behind. And I think I've looked at that as a sign of weakness. Instead of heating that we are all different and we all have different speeds and frequencies that we operate on and we'll get there in our own way.

Michael: We will. And that hustling mentality look, you have to hustle. That's the reality, that's life across the board. To some extent, you want to be a great dad. You got to hustle, you want to be a great mom, you got to hustle, you want to be a great leader, you got to hustle, you want to whatever the thing is, there's always an effort of energy required for it to come to pass. And so I don't want people to think that they're going to lack sedasically like navigate the world. You're not going to secret yourself into success. Let's not live in a and that in people too, when they're playing in the fairy tale and they're like, I'm going to manifest this. I'm like, no, you're not, you're going to have to work. But here's what's really interesting. Cause I thought about this as you were talking about this hustle culture. We're in it will lead you down a path on a long enough timeline to be an exhausted. There's no way around it. It's hit me. It's hit you, it's hit. Almost every single person that I know, especially right now, it's like more content, more episodes, more of this, more of that. And sometimes it's more volleyball games for the girls, more PTA meetings for dad, more of this, where there's always a more, but what's really interesting, and I saw this recently, I want to say that it was in a major publication for the first time in American history. Children will not out earn their parents.

Chase: Yes, exactly. Yep.

Michael: And so the question becomes then why are we hustling so hard?

Chase: I've read the same thing. It's a, yeah, not only will they not out earn, but we're already seeing it in terms of the amount of. Homeowners from boomers to millennials to dropping off a cliff with Gen Z, what a weird thing to think about, every generation in American history has always been able to ascend to at least a little bit of a higher level. Yeah, look, I don't, what are we doing it for? I think that's the thing that at least I'm grateful for, like with my kids. I look at them and I'm, and that's my purpose. That's what I'm hustling for. That's what I'm, working sometimes 12, 14 hours a day. And yet I can't get caught up in that either because what's the point of me working my butt off now to provide for them in the future if I'm not being present with them here? So finding that balance, right? The same thing, whether it's with your kids or yourself ,you're burning, you're burning at both ends to what end, okay, great. Maybe you make it to that milestone in your life. You always hope for in five years and 10 years and 15 years. But what about the process to me? Like you've got to think of the journey is the reward. And so I don't know if it's answering your question, but it's a constant reminder for me to look at the times that I take for myself and for my family and for my kids, not as not as a cop out or a break, but reconnecting with the things that matter most and why I hustle and why I work the way I do.

Michael: When you say the journey is the reward what does that mean? Because I hear those words and I'm not sure. That I always agree with that, ‘cause sometimes I'm like, dude, this is so exhausting, right? Or this journey is so difficult or this journey has taken so much for me. How do you look at the journey through gratitude? How do you look at it through this space that allows it to be a role?

Chase: Look, it's about prioritizing the means versus the ends, right? If you're constantly have your eye on what's the end game, you're not enjoying the process. And that scares the shit out of me. If I go through life just on autopilot racing towards this kind of self imposed goal and I don't stop and enjoy my life, I'm going to look back with regret. So the journey is reward is, it's a bit of a mindset shift in terms of thinking constantly goal and outcome oriented, we got to think process and the means of that. So all that to say is, I think that has at least helped me take a step back, a bit of a breath, not be overwhelmed and overcome by where I want to get to, but instead doing everything I can in the moment to be mindful, to be present, to be grateful. Trust the process let it play out for itself find joy and meaning in that journey.

Michael: I'm going to ask you one question that I'm going to ask you a different one. I'm very curious. Is there you mentioned earlier, get your, you have to get your mind, it's a hard part of your day. It's a part of your day. That's super important, same for me. If I don't go through my process in the morning, my brain is on fucking planet Pluto. I don't even know where I am. And I have a pro. Yeah, I do actually. And so I have a process for that. What kind of processes should people be considering? What have you found that works for you? And what do you think are some things maybe some people should try to create some process in their life? Because I agree with you entirely that process are ultimately going to be the thing that gives you freedom. Also, another word we could use for discipline.

Chase: Exactly. Yeah, my men, my mentor he was a great source of inspiration. He was all about, he was big into Napoleon Hill and 17 laws for success and define your definite major purpose and have a positive mental attitude. Get your money. And every morning that we would talk, the first thing he would say to me is you got your mind, right? And most mornings I'm like, not yet. I'm getting there, give me a moment. Let me have my coffee. But that's the way he started every single day is he got his mind, right? And for him, that was waking up before him and summoning him out. For me, it's very different and it's different for everybody, I'm sure. My practice is taking pieces from what I've learned from different practices and people over the years. Just starting with gratitude reading some affirmations that I've written down in a journal for myself doing a little bit of a meditation whether that's, sitting in silence or in peace, or if I don't have time, maybe going on a quick little walk or doing a breathing exercise before I do anything else. The compulsion is to check my phone. I know I've got a hundred something emails burning a hole in my pocket But fighting that desire and that kind of compulsion to go and check and start checking things off your list stop, give yourself some space get your mind right and then go into your day and the same thing goes for the end of the day Right instead of going to sleep after binging a show or being on your phone or checking the last few emails You've got to then reprogram, check back in, go through those gratitudes, those affirmations, that mantra. For me, in this season, it's, a little bit spiritual. It's helped me to see and walk the path of my greatest purpose, my greatest prosperity and peace. And that's just something that's Come together for me, but it's different for everyone when I share with friends about meditation practice and I hear, Oh yeah, I've tried meditation. It doesn't work for me or I can't do it. I'm like, I'm sorry. That's fine if you think about it in a certain paradigm, but meditation can be whatever you need it to be as long as you are present and mindful in the moment. So that's to me, meditation is one of the biggest things that's changed my life, and I think a lot of people avoid it because they think it has to be done a certain way, but that's why they call it a practice, right? There's never perfection there, same thing with the journey.

Michael: Yeah that makes a lot of sense. And it's very much like yoga. When I started my yoga journey, it was on DVDs in my living room 14 years ago in silence and no one knew that I was doing it. And now today it's a very different journey where I do a public, I talk about it frequently and that. Is a form of meditation. And in fact, the very way that I actually worked through a huge dissociative identity disorder was in meditation, like my brain and my body were so unbelievably disconnected. It was through meditation and through the meditation of the yoga practice that I was able to get reconnected. Now, here's, what's really interesting chase, and this is one of those things that. Like in hindsight, I understand what happened, but in the moment it was lost on me, it made me deal with the shit that was in front of me. Because I could not run from it, it came to the surface. It was like, you're not being a good brother, you're not being a good entrepreneur. You're not being a good steward of a healthy lifestyle for yourself. And I remember one day I was thinking, I was like, I don't have, at the time I'm like, I've never been married, no kids, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, what are you going to do if you're not able to walk your kid down the aisle because you chose to smoke two packs a day until you were 50. And it was like, it was little mindset shifts like that came to me in these practices of meditation that allowed me the space to actually really go deeply into the healing journey and I saw the impact on my family. On my friends, on my money, my health, wealth, relationships all got an alignment, they all changed. I'm not saying they all stayed perfect because they did it. There's always work, but there were shifts. And so I'm wondering getting your mind that huge element of your day, both morning and night, how does that impact you, your family and your business?

Chase: It affects everybody. It just asked my wife, probably her most of all, if I'm in a mood or short tempered or a little bit pissed off, she'll call me on it. She's have you meditated today? Do you want to go take five and go meditate? Why don't you go do that?

Michael: Do you want to get away from me?

Chase: Yeah, right? And she knows me at this point, but it's helped me be more patient and present with my kids. I did it before I got on this call with you this podcast with you, cause I wanted to, I've had a crazy day back to back calls and emails and I needed to recenter and re and just recalibrate. I didn't want to come with all that baggage on this conversation. Yeah, I think absolutely. First of all, for me dealing with, pretty much major depression most of my life for the last 25 plus years. I've tried everything in the book to try and work through that, combat it, reduce the impact it's had on my life. Meditation is the single most effective thing I've ever done as a practice that has helped alleviate that. Whether it's medication or exercise or fitness, those are all great things. But never have I gotten the sort of, immediate sort of benefit of sitting and meditating before I dive into my day, before I, sit with my kids. Am I perfect? No. Do I miss days? Absolutely. And I feel it, I know it. And I know if I get to the point of burnout and overwhelm and stress and all this, I gotta go check back in, I gotta go, get some me time.

Michael: I think it's interesting that there are a lot of misnomers around mental health and I'm going to point one out. That's very abundantly clear here. At least to me, and I, have a strong feeling knowing what I know and doing what I've done for almost a decade that people are going to be like, Oh, this guy had a perfect childhood. How could he possibly be depressed, anxious and overwhelmed.

Chase: Yeah, trust me.

Michael: And it's such an interesting point to look at it and go, mental health doesn't care about your background, your race, your identity, your sexuality, what you come from. It's like you're having a biological and human experience. And what I will say is I suffered, tremendous anxiety and depression, especially in my twenties. This is obviously something I've shared before, but I attempted to take my life twice as a kid. And you look at that and it's even though my childhood was a polar opposite to yours, it's even though those things happen, those experiences, whether good, bad or indifferent, however we choose to make meaning of them. When you are faced with the adversity of your own mind, You have to understand that you're having a biological experience and something as simple as what you just said. If I take five minutes to meditate, it changes my day. And I just want to encourage people who are listening. If you're struggling, if you're depressed, it's okay. And what are you going to do about it? There was recently a Newsweek article that came out. I don't know if you saw this or not, but SSRIs are 65 percent efficacy versus placebo. And it's fascinating. We live in this society, this might go down a weird path here for a second, but you're marketed illness in America told you're sick. You're told you're depressed. And I deal with depression, anxiety to this day. Trust me before I get on stage, I feel like I'm going to puke. I'm hands are sweaty. I'm freaking out, but I love it. I still love it. It's the weirdest drug, but it's like you have the ability. It is my, oh, it's a hundred percent my drug, but you have the ability. To harness your own inner energy, do the internal work and be able to navigate your day. Have you, obviously you pointed to it, but there's gotta be a significant shift in your life before and after this, getting your mind.

Chase: Yeah, massive. But to your point about, meds, no meds, et cetera, we're programmed to, we're used to treating the symptoms, not the root cause of it. And trust me, given, my background when seemingly, at least on the surface, things were, rosy, it can be inexplicable to look back and try to identify why am I having these thoughts? And why am I thinking this way? I can't point to any major trauma. What is it? That can be really frustrating. I'm grateful for that upbringing, but at some point in time, it's like, my, my brother, for example, he's never thought or considered or done a day of therapy in his life and maybe that's just an awareness thing. This has been a part of my, who I am, my personality, same upbringing, right? Same nurture, maybe a little bit different nature but it affects us in different ways. And I'm sorry, what was the question? What was the question you asked me.

Michael: Yeah, just looking at your life, the difference between before and then after.

Chase: Yeah, so the difference before and after learning to implement certain practices in my life to change my mindset, I was on autopilot, I was like my business, my life, my relationship, my career was it was on autopilot, cruise control, I'm like half asleep at the wheel. I wasn't living, I wasn't engaged before. Now it's two hands on the wheel and I feel control of where I am steering and taking my life and my business and my career that didn't happen previously because there was a sense of overwhelm and I didn't want to face reality. I want to, I didn't want to face the struggles that I was dealing with internally. Now just talking about it, being open, having these conversations and putting in the work, because it's work, you gotta put in the effort. Has completely transformed the way I treat myself, I treat people around me. Like I said, this can shift within, within a day or an hour or a minute. Where my wife will call me out and she sees me getting to that edge and I can go and I can meditate and I can come back in. And I'm ready to be present again, like what else can give you that immediate shift and relief? So I went on a medication.

Michael: Yeah. And I would have to assume it must also impact your employees and your team and your ability to be a leader. And it makes me think of, with your company, Vanquish Media Group this, I don't know if it's a slogan or motto for you, but do good and do well. And it's like, how do you do that if you don't do it for yourself first.

Chase: And that's where it started, right? I had run my business for a number of years. Trying to be all things to all people and all clients and saying yes to any opportunity that came my way and try to grow at all costs. And again, I was on autopilot. I was letting the work and the clients define me and define my company. And over time, I looked back and I realized I was on this really divergent path. It was incremental, but you look at, a few years back, you're like, wow, I've really veered off course. What am I even doing? Why am I doing this? I'm not even enjoying myself. And about a year ago, we were at probably the greatest point we were ever at financially, productivity wise bigger team, more clients, and within a matter of three months that all got wiped out for a variety of reasons, right? So brought to my knees to the point where I had the same feeling, you had recently Fuck it. Should I just, give it all up, shut it all down. But instead I turned inwards and I really put in the work to think about and contemplate what does give me joy? What do I feel purpose about? What is my why? And I had to do that work and define it for myself, and I've been fortunate enough to manifest that into my business and, abide by that as some sort of a mantra for my clients. But it's, to me, it's a really, we're living in this great time where profit and purpose are doing good and doing well are not mutually exclusive, right? They can coexist. And that's a really special thing. By pursuing your passion, you're calling your purpose. Whether you're a for profit or non profit company that can drive you to do well in life and get that freedom, whether it's financial or creative or personal. So yeah, I had to do that personal work first, before I could do it for the business, and I tried to take that approach with clients, that's you have to do some personal development before you think about the business and the brand development ‘cause if you try and just race into the finish line, more leads, more revenue, more ROI or whatever it is, you're not being authentic to yourself and you're going to burn out.

Michael: And that what's interesting about what you just said, that also applies to whether you're an entrepreneur or you work for someone and you get a W two. It's fascinating when you look at. The research around quiet quitting or intentional dismantling of businesses from the inside and employees and it's like it's because they don't want to be there and it's so weird because people are so faced with this idea that it's money first, but I. There's a quote in my bedroom from my mentor, David Meltzer, and I printed it so I could read it every day. It says, be concerned about you, the consistent, persistent pursuit of your progress and your passion and the money will follow. And I, how do you, so here's an interesting thought then, and I think this really matters because money is obviously the currency. If it were gummy bears, we'd talk about gummy bears, but it's not. So let's talk about money. How do you do good and do well and make money? Like, where do you find the intersection of that pursuing your purpose and not getting burned out and overwhelmed and depressed.

Chase: So great question. We have shifted from what was once more a shareholder driven economy to a more stakeholder driven economy, meaning the power shifted into the hands of employees and consumers, et cetera. And there's this evolution of us as consumers, a more conscious capitalism, if you will, we're not just seeking features and benefits. We're seeking experiences and things that help align with our values and our identity, right? That's people buy an emotion first and logic second to validate it, right? So in this sea of sameness that we live in terms of so many products, so many competitors, so many options, having a clearly defined purpose, and it clearly defined why is one of the greatest differentiators in positioning yourself in the market. If I'm looking at an array of products that list the same features and the same, ingredients and relatively the same packaging, what's the one that's going to speak to me? The one that stands for something or has a commitment to a greater good beyond profit. Brand purpose is all about what do you believe? What do you stand for beyond the bottom line. And while that used to be just a bit of a, mission statement for companies, the reality, the data doesn't lie. And I've curated so much of this data, it's incredible. People are willing to, people are more willing to buy from, work for, and invest in purpose driven companies versus companies that, just operate on a frame of traditional shareholder model. So that results in greater margin, greater market share, greater employee retention and fulfillment, greater performance, in the S and P. The data is there to prove purpose as a differentiator and a necessary connection that forms a deeper bond with your customers, with your employees, giving people a reason to believe. Doing that and trust in the process, the profit will absolutely come and we are getting there. We are evolving as a society. This is already happening obviously with millennials. Forget about Gen Z. Gen Z is going to tip the scales in terms of they are going to demand. What do you stand for? What do you believe in as a company? And they are willing to be more loyal and step up and be ambassadors for you. So you talk about where's the money come from? You do the right thing and it will follow the money and the finances and the success and profit will follow.

Michael: And doing so in light of the fear of the unknown. And that's the biggest thing you talked about the alignment of values and identity. And it's so true because if you're the reason why I wrote. I am a person who does not get overwhelmed is because my value and my identity is so tied to my why. And my why is very simple. How do I end generational trauma in my lifetime? And then underneath that sits another level, which I don't really talk about that often, but it's really strongly a commitment that I have to my employees, to the show, to the production, the people that are on this show to the emails I send out to everything. And it's because if I can create constant so good that no one else has to take their own life, sign me up. And when you have a conversation like this, it's bathed in vulnerability where people on the outside will go that guy had a good childhood and he runs a business. He has employees. He does X number of dollars a year. He has a wife and kids and great glasses and a cool house and probably a great car. What does he have to suffer through? And then you realize that The number one cause of death on, on average per capita for people age 35 to 45, a suicide, it's depression overwhelm, it's my life is hard. It's social media is killing me. And it's but if you could just get an alignment. And do good and do well, your life will change, but you have to give that to yourself first.

Chase: You do, you have to be willing to invest in yourself and bet on yourself. And as you're listing all these things, the family, the glasses, the health, it's funny to hear you say that because I'm listening to you, but it's hard to absorb that as a person, right? When receive someone reflecting upon you. So to anyone listening that whether you have these opportunities or advantages or skills or experiences, like you're not alone, like it's not as rosy as it appears to be at face value, this is something that we all go through together and thank you, thanks to you and what you speak about and what you talk about on your podcast that I think demystifies it for a lot of people, right? You following your why, has differentiated you in the market has created an identity bigger than yourself. Your why is bigger than just you, right? This is, if you were just a kind of a generic mental health podcast, okay, maybe some people would tune in, but you've got a unique perspective and a unique life experience that you don't shy away from. You lead into that and whether people have that matching experience or not, they gravitate towards that authenticity. It's compelling, it's engaging, it's inspiring. So again, it sounds like you've had some incredible success and I'm sure you can credit that to being authentic and following your why, right?

Michael: Yeah, and here's one of the important parts about it too, Chase, is doing so in light, in faith, in spite of the people that tell me I shouldn't. Or the people that say how dare you or the people that say, I literally had someone say you're too ghetto to help people. Like this is literal thing. Some guy emailed me and I posted about.

Chase: Don't fit in this.

Michael: Because I thought it was so asinine. And what it comes down to is People will always want to put you in a box and they see me. I'm, I'm six foot four covered in tattoo gold nose ring guy. What do I know about kindness? And I'm like, Chase, everything, bro. I know everything about it's my life. It's the thing that's brought me here today is leveraging that tool. But that why is so important. And sometimes it falls in your lap, right? Sometimes you're sitting and you're looking, you're reflecting on your life and you're like, Oh, this is it. And sometimes it's just simply comes to you in this space of a space of fulfillment, space of gratitude, a space of just trusting, because there's a big part of it that is just simply trusting. It's the same reason clients come to you. They trust you. And I would argue, they're probably going to trust you even more after this because of the willingness to be vulnerable. No one feels connected to those who are always shiny. You sit here, you look at these people who are flawless and you're like, okay, guy, really?

Chase: Well, look, you get that on the personal level and you get that on the business level, right? I think we are savvy enough to do that. Not we in general, people are savvy enough to be able to call BS on that, right? See through the veneer of this kind of smoke and mirrors, and the same goes for businesses, right? There's a lot of what we consider and call purpose washing, right? Or people are familiar with green washing, right? They're really good at talking to talk. They're really good at self promotion and we're doing good for the earth and we're helping, our community and we're giving back to our employees. But there's this gap. It's this purpose paradox as we call it between what is being said and the ethos and spoken mission on news and PR and the spokesperson of the CEO. And what actually is happening at a real grassroots ground level within the organization within their community with their consumers. And so you get this disconnect and it'll catch up with you really fast. It's not a matter of just defining a why and saying it because it sounds good. You've got to walk that talk, right? You have to meet performance, with that promise and it's not easy and there's times when you know, you're having a bad quarter, you're having a bad year, you're having a bad month and you think to yourself I'm following this passion and this purpose is it really what people want? Is it really working? You have to be consistent with that and that builds over time because if you pivot on a knee jerk reaction, all of a sudden stuff's not going your way. All right, we're going to pivot our mission statement and our vision and our values. Wait, what? So were you even serious about it in the first place? You got to be consistent with that because people are going to check you on it. And now, thankfully, even the sec is getting a little more diligent about, wait a minute, business brand corporation. You are claiming these different things that look good on the surface and even give you benefits. Are you actually implementing them? So we got to hold ourselves and the people that we work with and purchase from accountable.

Michael: And ourselves first and the people we work for, you spend more of your time working than you do anything in the world. And it's if you're not in alignment with your mission, your vision, your values, your purpose, your boundaries, you're going to be overwhelmed. You're going to be burned out. You're going to want to quit. You're going to want to run away and run for the hills. And I think there's so much insightful thought process and in this conversation today that I hope people really take from it and look at it like you and I are from two different spectrums of reality facing the same issues. This is a human problem, this isn't a Michael and Chase problem. This is a human problem. It is not about your money. It is not about your car. It's not about your clothes. You will never get fulfillment from those things. It really truly is about getting your mind getting focused, like making sure you put yourself in a position to be successful, how you choose to be successful. ‘Cause I can promise you this. One of the things that I look at constantly is am I happy with my life? And if the answer is no, you have to pivot. You just have to I'm curious. You talked about gratitude a lot, and this is a word that is often overrun, especially in my industry. It's a word we talk about every single day. It's a word that not a lot of people leverage. It's funny. A few years ago, I had a friend make me a candle. It says gratitude on it and has a quote, it's weird reading my own quote, but it says gratitude, no matter how small can impact your day for the better. And then it has my name. Cause it's my quote. Gratitude has led me here. No questions asked between that and kindness out 50, 50, that being my success. But Chase, I'm curious, speaking of gratitude in this human experience, who is someone in your life? That has played a role in your life that maybe you haven't given enough gratitude to that you can shout out right now, someone that you could just take a pause, acknowledge, send them some flowers for the impact that they've had on who you've become today.

Chase: Ooh. Probably a lot of people, who I'm gonna go with is is my parents. Because I think at times in my life I've taken for granted the life, the upbringing that they provided to me. You lose sight of that sometimes. They're, I am grateful that they have always been. There for me, supporting me and my family through my darkest times. And I've shared with them some things that I, they know exactly what I've gone through. But I probably don't say it enough. I probably don't say to think I do now that I have kids and I appreciate what they went through with raising me and my brother. But damn, being a parent is not easy. It is hard. You give so much of yourself, you sacrifice. So much of yourself and you aspire to be better and help your Children level up so they can be more enlightened and better people and souls, and than you, and I know deep down that my parents generation baby boomers, they didn't have the tools and vernacular that we have. We're talking about right now, right? Or at least it wasn't in the common consciousness. So grateful for them, and giving me the opportunity to platform to elevate myself and my life and my family, it's the whole standing on the shoulder is a giant sort of ideal of that.

Michael: I'm sure that they appreciate the gratitude as well before I ask you my last question where can everyone find you and learn more about what you do?

Chase: I already told you that I like to be a little bit of a digital ghost on social media, but LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect and just have a real conversation. Chase Friedman on LinkedIn. You could also check out, our company, our website, vanquishmediagroup.com. But yeah, would love to hear from anybody. At any place and phase of life just need a little bit of a pep talk, happy to share with you, a little bit of hope, a little bit of inspiration, a little bit of gratitude to help you on your journey.

Michael: Love that. And guys, of course, go to thinkunbrokenpodcast.com look up Chase's episode. You will find that and more in the show notes. My last question for you, my friend, what does it mean to you to be unbroken?

Chase: It means it, to me, it means resilience. It means I might not have had, have found the answers yet. I may not have found that true fulfillment yet, but I'll be damned if I ever stop looking for it. And that strength and that resilience to continue and that fortitude to press on in the darkest of times is that's how I look at being unbroken.

Michael: Brilliantly said, my friend. Thank you so much for being here on broken nation. Thank you for listening. Remember every time you share this content, you're helping other people transform trauma to triumph breakdowns to breakthroughs and to become the hero of their own story.

And Until Next Time,

My Friends

Be Unbroken.

I'll See Ya.